Archaeologica.org

Damn all I suspect Min. They passed through history with little impact.

Roy.

Cognito wrote:

The Native American population die off at 8,350 BCE appears to be tied to the arrival from Europe of the Red Paint People.The plagues ca 1175 CE was most likely due to Viking contact, and the Dorset pretty much went extinct.

EP, you are correct. Plagues played a far more important part in history than anyone would like to admit. Your observation that the Red Paint People and Norse were responsible for die-offs at those times is astute since pandemics do not spread of their own without a reason. Europeans appear and the natives die off - it ain't no coincidence, folks.

Another ground-breaking book on the topic was Life on Man by Rosebury:

http://www.grg.org/trosebury.htm

Thanks for the compliment, Cognito... be sure to tell your friends, as I need to sell some books

You want to tell them about the Zhamanshan Impact and HSS and HSN?

Minimalist wrote:We were also told by reputable historians that the Indian population of the Americas was low and scattered before Columbus. That idea is not holding up and it was only 500 years ago.

My short powwow discussion when speaking about the peoples and the lands, when visitors mention artifacts they have found: "If there were 2,000 people left in a division when the European farmers showed up, then the plague before that there were 20,000. The plague before that there were 200,000 people. The plague before that there were 2,000,000."

In many areas the fields were still clear to some degree, and the orchards were still growing, and the farmers simply moved in. This is almost uniformly true for early European sites in Virginia: find an early plantation, and you're at a village site.

Given that HSS had adopted marine technologies, including riverine, while HNS had remained a big game hunter, the tech advantage of HSS is clear, as is their broader food base. Their larger numbers wouldn't have had to kill that much big game to have starved out HNS.

It is tantalizing whether some disease vector gave HSS another edge. While we're thinking mammal source, perhaps it was aquatic. This is one case where I don't think it was impact related.

Using maths, common sense and a degree of speculation I came up with this...
HSN numbers 15000 in Eurasia...
Hunter gather groups supposedly number about 30 individuals...
Number of HG groups in Eurasia, 500...
Area of Eurasia 5000000 sq kms plus...
Even allowing for unsuitable areas that equates to an individual territory of 10000 sq kms per group.
This leads me to ask a number questions...
Why 15000?
How is that arrived at?
What signs would such a low population densisty leave for us to find?
Cave dweller? I doubt it. If you stand on the Eastern coast of England and stare East the next range of mountains is the Urals, with grass and forest in between, little likelihood of many suitable caves I think.
Such low populations would have had little reason to occupy the whole of Eurasia so if those figures are correct they probably never spread very far, if they spread over Eurasia then their population was probably much higher.
Without caves our chances of finding evidence of other living sites would seem to be small.
500 groups in that area would live and die without seeing another HSN on average.

Roy.

HSS have to play a part a major role (wether it was disease, bred out or a combination of this and other factors (best hunting grounds taken over?)) in the disappearance of HSN. They flourished for millennia and only when HSS emerged did the decline in their numbers begin.

One thing that puzzles me is why, after such a bloody long time, was the HSN population so low? High infant mortality rates? High death rates during childbirth? Were they living in isolated communities, as Digit presented above, and inbreeding leading to Infertility?

I doubt that the numbers were that low Nigel or that the communities were isolated.
The reasoning seems to be that as HSN remains are found in caves ipso facto they were cave dwellers.
How much evidence of a plains Indian's summer camp would be around now after thousands of years?
How much evidence of a Yurt encampment or one from the Kung?
Once HSN moved onto the Eurasian plains just what impact would they have had on the environment?
Eurasia is might large!

Roy.

Digit wrote:Once HSN moved onto the Eurasian plains just what impact would they have had on the environment?
Roy.

Apart from none? None.
Even large campsites would have been completely eroded away and absorbed back into the natural surroundings with no trace of their passing left.

Exactly Nigel! Attempts to calculate a population from cave remains is rather like calculating the population of North America from the few remaining sky scrapers in the 50 century ruins of new York!

Roy.

So what could their population have been at the time that HSS emerged? Everywhere that you look, encyclopedias or the Internet, it is agreed that the HSN population was very small. If this is mainly based on findings within caves and sheltered valleys etc. how large could it have been if you include the open countryside and forests?

Even hundreds of thousands would not seem improbable Nigel.
Their population may have been relatively low, but to calculate it on cave remains is rubbish!
What would the peak figure for the NA plains Indians be calculated at if cave remains were used as the basis for the calculations?
HSN was one of the most successful Homo species, I cannot accept that they could have survived for so long on such a small population base, it simply defies logic.

Roy.

HSN must have known the layout of the surrounding countryside for miles around and known the weather patterns. There obviously were roughly the same types of seasons that we have now. Even during extended icy periods. During the warmer months they could have lived in open areas where there was ample resources to build temporary shelters. Then when it grew colder moved back into caves or followed the migrating herds.

How many people could live in a decent sized cave, or a group of caves in close proximity to each other, and have it look as if only a handful actually inhabited them? They would’ve thrown the majority of waste out of the caves or they would’ve been inundated with piles of bones and other rubbish. Being tens of thousands of years ago everything in the open would have vanished leaving only a small percentage of remains inside the caves themselves.

I see the point were using remains inside of caves to estimate a population’s size can be just a tad dodgy.

HSN was around for a long time as you noted Nigel, that makes him a rather successful species. Successful species normally expand to the extent that their environment will support, I see no reason to make an exception of HSN.
During the milder spells they must have occupied a hunter gatherer's heaven, predators may have been a danger to individuals but none would have threatened their species.
Modern people who live on the steppe do not over winter in caves, as there ain't any, I suspect that HSN lived in caves during the summer rather than the winters, some of the larger caves containing their remains would have been a damn sight colder in winter than a Yurt!
Their remain in caves may represent those who died during the winter when the ground was too hard for burial,
I suspect a complete re appraisal of HSN numbers and practises is long over due, too long has he been dragging the cave man image with him IMO.

Roy.

Nigel Di Salvia wrote:HSN must have known the layout of the surrounding countryside for miles around and known the weather patterns.

That seems reasonable.

Nigel Di Salvia wrote: There obviously were roughly the same types of seasons that we have now.

I wouldn't be too sure about that, Nigel.

This whole discussion is so inferential:
We don't know the environment, the weather, the fauna.
We don't know the prey animals, their annual ranges, nor their total populations, nor percentage contibution to diet and goods.
We have limited cave samples to work from, and that seems to be about it, without even the outsides of the caves having been thoroughly examined, as far as I know.
We have no soft remains that were preserved at any site, as far as I know.
We have no kill sites, and little idea of hunting techniques, beyond those infered from points and anatomy and cave location.

There appears a lack of tools for marine/riverine food utilization.
I don't think even bear fishing sites have been checked for HSN presence.

The caves were along river valleys, natural game migratory pathways.

That said, if you're looking for the split between HSS and HSN, take a look at the Zamanshan Impact.

Finally, there is no agreement on the name for the HSS and HSN ancestor.

Cognito wrote: HSS population studies are more developed, but this entire area is fascinating with no easy answer to: Why did the HSS population rapidly expand after 50,000bce while HN remained static? So far, there is no clearcut answer.

The clearcut, one word answer:

BOATS - and all the food that goes with them

As evidenced by HSS in Australia, and as I pointed out, op. cit.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
(a truly great book, if I do say so myself. The bitch is likely to do quite well, once it's finished killing me.)

You may not think so, but it seems to me this is as good a place as any to bring up this item concerning HSS/HSN divergence. From the meteorite list:

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/ ... index_html

Rewriting 'Out of Africa' theory
By : Melissa Darlyne Chow

GEORGE TOWN: Universiti Sains Malaysia's (USM) Centre for Archaeological Research Malaysia has found evidence of early human existence in the country dating back 1.83 million years.

"This discovery may make the rewriting of the 'out of Africa' theory necessary," the centre's director, Associate Professor Mokhtar Saidin said.

The evidence was obtained from the discovery of artefacts in Bukit Bunuh,
Lenggong, Perak.

Mokhtar said the evidence found included stone-made tools such as axes and chopping tools.

The artefacts were found embedded in suevite rock, formed as a result of the impact of meteorite crashing down at Bukit Bunuh. The suevite rock, reputedly the first found in Southeast Asia, was sent to the Geochronology Japan Laboratory three months ago and carbon dated using the fission track dating method.

Mokhtar said the results were sent back to USM two weeks ago and it showed the rock was dated to 1.83 million years ago.

He said based on current studies, there was fresh evidence of human mobility coming from Asia and Southeast Asia, and not just out of Africa.

Based on world evidence, there was early human existence "out of Africa" in Georgia (1.8 to 1.7 million years ago); Sangiran, Jawa, Indonesia (1.7 to 1.2 million years ago); as well as Longgupo and Yuanmou in China (1.8 to 1.6 million years ago).

He noted that with the new evidence, there was a possibility that the hominids in Java could have migrated from Bukit Bunuh as a result of destruction from the impact of meteorites.

The four square-kilometre site, which was first excavated between 2001 and 2003, revealed a Palaeolithic culture, dated at 40,000 years ago.

The meteorite crash site was also discovered, the impact of which had caused the stones in its original state at Bukit Bunuh to melt, congeal and subsequently form the suevite rock.

USM Vice-Chancellor Tan Sri Prof Dzulkifli Abdul Razak said the discovery was an important one for USM and the country as it would enable researchers to understand the origins of early humans in this region.

He said the new discovery would also change the understanding of human
exploration in this region.

End article. Once again, the Zamanshan Impact most likely separated the HSS/HSN ancestral populations.