Archaeologica.org

Digit wrote:

In those days you made everything on the spot, Roy. Out of available materials. The templates/designs for those tools, however, had already been imprinted in their collective memory, their oral tradition, and, possibly, their pictoral culture, for millennia. And were highly mobile. No need to go back across to get those.

You've missed my point. If they took generations to get there and did so by sending people back to Europe for supplies BEFORE they got there is what I meant. They could not have made stone tools on the ice there is NO stone on the ice. They either carried it with them, sent back for supplies or arrived before their stocks ran out!
Which was it?

Neither.
They made 'm out of rock when they were still in the old fatherland.
They made 'm out of bone when they were on the ice.
They made 'm out of rock again when they were back on Terra Firma: in the New World.

Drift wood can become so saturated that it eventually sinks

Well, coincidentally they weren't looking for sunk wood, Roy. They were looking for floating wood. And found plenty of it.

In the open air in northern latitudes the lowest moisture figures that can be obtained in timber is 20%.

Whatever the theoretical figures in libraries say, I can tell you that in practice it burns like a fresh jalapeña! You see, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And I've tasted it.

And you still haven't commented on the PS I posted by those who originated the theory and the mechanism that you so vigorously reject, why is that?

What was that?

I ask again, why would a people with a maritime culture dump it and walk everywhere?

Assuming you're now talking about why the Solutreans would step off the ice and take up a land based existence again, but this time in America? Well, first off: you assume they had a choice in the matter. I postulate they probably didn't. They simply adapted to the changing circumstances in all phases of their trek. It's why they left the European continent. It's how they managed to survive the epic trek across the ice. It's why they stayed in the land of milk and honey when they'd arrived. The mechanism of evolution: adaptation.

In any case there were plenty of reasons to stay:
• they recognized the land they found as the paradise their fathers descibed in campfire stories of the old fatherland; summarily embellished as campfire stories and legends are
• it was teeming with mega fauna, unlike Europe, so it actually was paradise to them
• there was no hominid competition
• climates were warming, the Würm was winding down in leaps and bounds
They never had it so good in living memory! So there were plenty of reasons to stay!

And the kicker:
• the ice was retreating. Fast. There was no way back...

Rokcet Scientist wrote: And the kicker:
• the ice was retreating. Fast. There was no way back...

There's a book deal in there for some ambitious soul.....

Sam Salmon wrote:

Rokcet Scientist wrote: And the kicker:
• the ice was retreating. Fast. There was no way back...

There's a book deal in there for some ambitious soul.....

Never mind the movie rights, box office split, sequels & prequels, and merchandising!

"The REAL Founding Fathers, Part I, Exodus"

Wow, imagine that: teaspoons with Solutrean Point handles. Genuwine replica Solutrean Point wind chimes to hang on your porch. Fully functional plastic neon-colored Solutrean bow & arrow sets for Junior, made in China. The self-destructive Goth subculture U-turns into the "SS", the Solutrean Solution, a post-Apocalyptic sect preparing for survival, re-emergence, and dominion after 12-21-2012. The possibilities are breathtaking(ly distasteful)!

Don't forget a good slogan.

"Sending back" implies a logistical train that we just cannot assume existed.

Quite agreed Min, I simply used it as a description of alternatives.
Any way, I think the argument is completely pointless, though fun, as any body living on the ice for an extended period of time would die PDQ from Scurvy and malnutrition due to poor diet.
A boat would have got them across in a few weeks.
Not even the Vikings walked.
To me Min the only interesting point is 'why?'
Your suggestion of 'refugees' makes a lot more sense than any ideas of food shortages etc.

Roy.

Digit wrote:any body living on the ice for an extended period of time would die PDQ from Scurvy and malnutrition due to poor diet.

Nope! There's enough nutrition and vitamins in Inuit's diet. For instance enough B from the sun, and C from cod liver oil (or was it vice versa...?). Only ignoramuses die from scurvy and malnutrition on the ice. And that Solutreans were not.

A boat would have got them across in a few weeks.

If they had had one and knew what they were doing. Negative on both counts.

Not even the Vikings walked.

On what?
Only Jesus could walk on water.
And, of course Vikings couldn't walk at all: they were too drunk.

To me Min the only interesting point is 'why?'

Survival.

Your suggestion of 'refugees' makes a lot more sense than any ideas of food shortages etc.

We know there were food shortages because the ice advanced, the mega fauna dwindled, and the competition grew.
We don't know they were actively fleeing from mortal enemies. But of course it could have been an addititional pressure.

Nope! There's enough nutrition and vitamins in Inuit's diet. Enough B from the sun, and C from cod liver oil. Only ignoramuses die from scurvy and malnutrition on the ice. And that Solutreans were not.

Here we go again! The Inuit have access to the land, they live mostly on the land, they hunt on land and ice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_liver_oil

Vitamin C?

The same ignoramuses who allowed thousands of sailors to die of Scurvy 'cos the cause wasn't understood.
We went over this argument ad nauseum with the colonisation of Australia and the Andaman islands RS, if they had boats to get them there at the period when they landed why didn't the Europeans?
You say the Solutreans weren't dumb, no, only dumber than the Abbos and Andamans it seems!

Roy.

http://www.therightperspective.org/skul ... ypothesis/

http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedric ... nnewic.htm

http://whitelocust.wordpress.com/pre-in ... ca-part-1/

You seem to be the only one in step I'm afaid RS. Not one mention of hiking in this lot. Are these people all wrong?

Roy.

Digit wrote:

Nope! There's enough nutrition and vitamins in Inuit's diet. Enough B from the sun, and C from cod liver oil. Only ignoramuses die from scurvy and malnutrition on the ice. And that Solutreans were not.

[...]

Vitamin C?

The same ignoramuses who allowed thousands of sailors to die of Scurvy 'cos the cause wasn't understood.

...yet. Until about the early eightteenth century when they learnt to understand it. As the Solutreans would have, after a while.

We went over this argument ad nauseum with the colonisation of Australia and the Andaman islands RS, if they had boats to get them there at the period when they landed why didn't the Europeans?

Neither boated. Both walked to their destinations.

Digit wrote:any body living on the ice for an extended period of time would die PDQ from Scurvy and malnutrition due to poor diet.

Nope! There's enough nutrition and vitamins in Inuit's diet. For instance enough B from the sun (and the Solutreans crossed at much more southerly latitudes than the Inuit live), and C from cod liver oil (or was it vice versa...?). Only ignoramuses die from scurvy and malnutrition on the ice. And that Solutreans were not.

A boat would have got them across in a few weeks.

If they had had one and knew what they were doing. Negative on both counts.

Not even the Vikings walked.

On what?
Only Jesus could walk on water.
And, of course Vikings couldn't walk at all: they were too drunk.

To me Min the only interesting point is 'why?'

Survival.

Your suggestion of 'refugees' makes a lot more sense than any ideas of food shortages etc.

We know there were food shortages because the ice advanced, the mega fauna dwindled, and the competition grew.
We don't know they were actively fleeing from mortal enemies. But of course it could have been an addititional pressure.[/quote]

Both walked to their destinations.

How the **** could the Andaman Islanders walk to the islands. For God sake check some of you statements before posting, such as Vitamin C!

would have, after a while.

What good would that have done them if they didn't have a supply?

Roy.

Digit wrote:

Both walked to their destinations.

How the **** could the Andaman Islanders walk to the islands.

On their feet: sea levels were 400 feet lower then, and it's also an extremely tectonically/volcanically active region there (Toba 70,000 BCE; tsunami 2004) causing the earth's crust to rise and fall like a yo-yo.

For God sake check some of you statements before posting, such as Vitamin C!

Right back at ya, Roy!

would have, after a while.

What good would that have done them if they didn't have a supply?

They had plenty 'supply'! Sun? Every day (if not overcast). Cod? All around them.

Vitamin C in Cod? Reference please!

Sun? Every day (if not overcast)

Daily sunshine in the tropics was no noted for preventing Scurvy amongst British sailors was it? Reference please!

When were the Andaman islands last connected to the mainland, again a reference please!

Roy.

Digit wrote:Vitamin C in Cod? Reference please!

No: vitamin B, D, and more in cods, doubting Thomas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_liver_oil).
Vitamins A and C by auto synthesis through sunshine/UV as a catalyst (find your own reference!).

When were the Andaman islands last connected to the mainland, again a reference please!

The Andaman islands were connected to the mainland when the people we know as the Andaman people reached them (DUH!), estimated between 80,000 and 70,000 BCE.
Don't know if that was the last time, but I'm gambling it was as the Andaman people appear to have been very isolated for a very long time.

Vitamins A and C by auto synthesis through sunshine/UV as a catalyst (find your own reference!).

Correct me if I'm wrong but is not man one of the animals that cannot syntasise vitamin C? So following you suggestion...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C

Ascorbate (an ion of ascorbic acid) is required for a range of essential metabolic reactions in all animals and plants. It is made internally by almost all organisms, humans being a notable exception.

From the above. Comment?

http://knol.google.com/k/seeger-carbaja ... kwpauy98/9

Read it! By boats!!!!

Roy.