Sumerian King List

[marduk]

If you go back a page or so, it was you that brought the bible into it. In fact in your opeing post you referenced Abraham and Ishmael whom you assert as fictional.

thats not what I said at all

The first is Abraham and the second his only real son Ishmael.
Neither of them were from "Ur of the Chaldees" which didn't exist until a thousand years after the claimed death of Abraham in the Bible anyway and neither of them ever left their home on a quest instructed by god.

hey i forgot about this poem

Where is God?

That's what I am thinking when I look outside

I only see evil, and no place to hide.

I can't help but wonder, what is going on

the world's gone to hell, and God is long gone

Its scary to realize that while I am thinking

our entire planet is rapidly sinking

further and further away from our dreams

and louder and louder grow billions of screams

Very soon the demons will have in their hands

the souls of all peoples, from all Earthly lands.

Humanity argues, the people all fuss,

and nobody sees that the demons are us

i still like it a lot

the sumerians also thought that evil was only extent in humanity
they were right imo
despite the fact that when they said it they didnt regard themselves as human
they just meant everyone else

bigots

[Cognito]

Anyway I am willing to 'bear my cross' (hows that for a genuine Christian cliche?) for the sake of understanding these lists a little deeper. I feel that if my faith can be destroyed its built on faulty ground. Let the journey begin.

Atta boy, FM! We had a former participant by the name of Arch who would be on his third coronary by now. At least you're able to have a discussion without resorting to insults.

[Forum Monk]

Ref: Post #1

OK, first potential overlap:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En-Men-Barage-Si (everyone likes wiki, no?)
Enmebaragesi, 22nd king of Kish I, ascended 3307bce by your rekoning. First king to be confirmed by alternate sources and named in the Gilgamesh Epic. It is said he was captured by Dumuzid who ascended 3248 by your rekoning. Dumuzid abt 3 generations later became king abt, 50 years after Aga the 24th of Kish I ascended. This implies the dynasty of Eanna grew up contemporary with the waning of Kish I. And the first four kings of Eanna were contemporary witht the last four of Kish I (more or less). Here, then, could be 50 of your plus or minus 150-300.

[Forum Monk]

Ref: Post #2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enmerkar
Second possible overlap and in any case an interesting character-
Enmerkar, 2nd of Eanna I (Uruk I) who is said to have built Uruk and made it his capital. His legends are interesting parallels with Nimrod but we need not discuss them, being merely legends and all (besides don’t archaeologists think David Rohl is a kook? jk). The question is, is it possible the second dynasty of Uruk may have been concurrent to this one, which constitutes a huge overlap?

[Forum Monk]

Ref: Post #1a

http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1811.htm
Another reference supporting ref #1 that Kish and Eanna (actually Uruk I) overlapped. Obviously Aga and Gilgamesh are contemporary.

[Forum Monk]

Ref: Post #3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesannepada
A brief reference for Mesannepada, who was the first king of Ur I and who defeated Meshe of Uruk I (ending as it were the dynasty of Meshkiaggasher started in Eanna). The reference mentions a Mesilim of Kish. Though Mesilim is not mentioned in the Kish I nor Kish II lists it could be a variant of another name or indicate that a Kish dynasty was flourishing inspite of having been thrown down some 150 years earlier. Actually I expect he could be an early leader in Kish prior to Susuda. Also we have a reference to the Semite kingdom of Mari which may also be flourishing inspite of Ur’s Sumerian dominance of the region. Mesannepada must of sought some kind of relations with Mari yet they would not rise to dominance until 200 years later.

In the reference cited above, a Lugal-kildu of Uruk is mentioned. He is not in your list though I have seen other references with cite that Lugal-kitun was the final ruler of Uruk I. (btw any basis that Uruk is actually Iraq?)

Perhaps no overlaps are here but some interesting synchronisms. Comments?

[marduk]

well it seems that you have come across the big problem
there is a list
and then there are other sources
in your ref 1 you did notice that the other source was a text of gilgamesh
as i said earlier
those texts are not religious texts
they are not historical documents either
I see a problem for your faith there though
if you do accept that the Bible is based on these earlier texts
(i think we proved that with the Noah / Gilgmaehs extracts)
then you also accept that these earlier texts are not historical documents and are merely historical based fictions then where does that leave the historical accuracy of the Bible

to believe that the earlier texts are actually factual is a bit of a stretch
Gilgamesh being 2/3 god
Enkidu beinbg a wild man who lived in the forest who became his equal and best friend
the journey to the underworld to retrieve a flower from the tree of life
etc
etc
etc

the other factor that you havent considered is the fact that as I have stated several times now
this is a list of high kings
just as in Egypt you had each king claiming to be a representation of Horus as his provenance to rule you have each king of Mesopotamia claiming to be an incarnation of Enlil as his provenance
Enlil was the throne name of all these kings and accounts for many confusing points in the rest of the texts available for study
there are many instances where such and such a king will claim to be fathered by Enlil and thus have Enlil's spirit within him
at the death of his father the same is said of his sons and so on
so despite there being instances of one God king being captured by another lesser vassal king (previously) the line of Gods remains unbroken until the death of the "chosen one" and the ascendance of his captor some time after the fact by right of conquest

have you heard how the late akkadian king Enlil Bani became king ?
thats story illustrates what I am saying perfectly as does the claim of Sargon to be Enlil

most of these texts that you have used to show overlaps date from the period 2500 - 1800bce
whereas the kings they mention were living anything up til 1000 years earlier
so they arent contemporary
and as we know
they arent factual
and anything based on them isnt factual either

unless of course you believe that the monotheistic YHWH was Enlil all along and it was his spirit residing in the kings of Sumer and the Hebrews just use the YHWH tag for their own very well publicised reasons and decided that all the other gods were irrelevant as there was only ever one true god
is that what you think Forum Monk ?
that YHWH was based on Enlil ?
they did after all apparently both send the same flood didn't they
and the words Eden and Adam are sumerian in origin
as is Satan
you mentioned this earlier and then went quiet
i'd like you to start a new thread where we can discuss this idea reasonably like was impossible in this forum before now
call it the "origin of monotheism" or something

[Forum Monk]

i'd like you to start a new thread where we can discuss this idea reasonably like was impossible in this forum before now
call it the "origin of monotheism" or something

Let's finish this one first. I know you are anxious to "crucify" me and every other Judeo-Christian who ventured into your 'world' but I really want to finish this because I have more questions. (believe me, they're just questions - and I think valid ones - I'm not trying to upset anyones research.) Anyway, it is really really difficult to explain spiritual issues since they transcend physical proofs and you being a scientist, demand physical proof. That's your job! btw, Enlil does not equal YHWH and I believed the hebrew text had a different source - believe me, before we venture into that arena I have some homework to do because you guys will turn it into a feeding frenzy and I need to fatten up if I expect to get out here with any meat on my bones!

[Forum Monk]

Hey Marduk, I'm missing something here - I gave you two references of overlap in post 1 and 1a then you got on the pulpit and preached right over my head. Are you dismissing my evidence becuase they are based on legends?

edit:
wait - oh yeah, they are not contemporary texts so not valid - sorry

[marduk]

in the first written flood story the ark is described as being made from the wall of a reed hut by Atrahasis
in a later account the ark is described as being made from reeds and being 120 cubits by 120 cubits iirc
in the noah version of the flood story the ark is made from gofer wood and described as pretty huge by comparison to the others

so if youre thinking that maybe in that case only the first unexaggerated version would be the truth then that part is factual history you'd be wrong
because an oral history preceeded all these stories
and in each retelling the details changed to match the culture that told them

so the stories from mesopotamia are valuable as they give an insight from an anthropological perspective as to how the people thought and what sort of things they believed and enjoyed
but you can't take what they say literally

for this very reason you can't trust an account written a thousand years after an event
if you had an unbroken record of earlier accounts that describe the same story then it would be better
but you also have to remember that the scribes writing this stuff down did so because they wanted to tell an entertaining moral story
not because they were historians

this kind of accuracy is only present in lists of kings which were written and copied from contemporary accounts

compare these two texts and you'll see what I mean
you may already be familiar with the first of them
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et2701.htm

Job - Folktale written between 500 BCE and 250 BCE; with chapters 32 to 37 added more recently

http://www.piney.com/BabTabuBel.html

In about 1700 B.C. a Babylonian poem treats of a mysterious affliction which overtook a righteous man of Babylon

Anyway, it is really really difficult to explain spiritual issues since they transcend physical proofs

only if you have faith
otherwise you can clearly show how spiritual issues evolved over time
i'll give you a brief example of that and one I'm sure that you will agree with
in this modern age ufologists often claim that where in an ancient text it states that "god came down from heaven" it means that god descended in an orbital shuttle or some such nonsense
but in the ancient world every culture believed that heaven was on a mountain top
the best known example of this is Mt Olympus
but this was true of all ancient cultures from India through to Egypt
so to state that God comes down from heaven has an obvious explanation

it wasn't until the advent of Hebrewism that heaven suddenly shot up into the sky somewhere
so you can clearly see the evolution from mountaintop - cosmos - ufo

Enlil does not equal YHWH and I believed the hebrew text had a different source

ooh i can't wait to hear it
it sounds groundbreaking unless its goping to be the usual "dictated by god"

[Forum Monk]

1. I advanced in life, I attained to the allotted span:
Wherever I turned there was evil, evil--
Oppression is increased, uprightness I see not.
I cried unto god, but he showed not his face.

5. I prayed to my goddess, but she raised not her head.
The seer by his oracle did not discern the future;
Nor did the enchanter with a libation illuminate my case;
I consulted the necromancer, but he opened not my understanding.
The conjurer with his charms did not remove my ban.

This sounds a lot like your poem a few post ago! (did someone else plagarize the ancient texts?)

Appreciate your second reference - never saw this similar Job text before - very interesting. Some believe Job is the oldest book in the hebrew texts (no references cited because I am researching Kings).

btw - a review of your posts is paraphrased below:
' there are other kings list but they add other unnecessary info' - rejected
' there are other texts but not contemporary' - rejected
'only a 20cm chunk of clay recorded 1000 years after the first king is trusted' - ding, ding, ding

Dare I continue?

[Forum Monk]

Ref: Post #4
Kugbau the queen mother and PuzurSuen. No reference given because I take this info for your original post.

Both are leaders of two different dynasties of Kish, with about a 100 years between them. The queen is Sumerian, the latter is Semite, but PuzurSuen is called the son of Kugbau. If no overlap exists here (i.e. with Akshak) the only possible explanation would be Puzur was the son of a goddess Kugbau supposedly venerated in some Hittite cultures. Hmmm.

I think it looks like Kish III and IV were sequential and Akshak either overlapped by 100 years or belongs to another time period.

[marduk]

did someone else plagarize the ancient texts?

Yes
E V E R Y O N E

did you also notice the similarity between Platos account and the Flood story
Plato - land of sinners washed away by a god with a trident in a flood that covered the mountains
flood story - land of sinners washed away by a god with a trident in a flood that covered the mountains

the Noah version and the Greek version are contemporaries of each other although of course by the time the christian version is written YHWH has lost his trident and it has been replaced by a trinity

still a three pronged assault by any other name



you may find this helpful
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/8331/dates.htm

[Forum Monk]

did you also notice the similarity between Platos account and the Flood story
Plato - land of sinners washed away by a god with a trident in a flood that covered the mountains
flood story - land of sinners washed away by a god with a trident in a flood that covered the mountains

Hey don't feed me that poppycock. I saw Exodus Decoded and everyone knows Plato was refering to the same Mediterrean volcano which drown pharoahs army by a massive tsumani which further changed the landscape between Sinai and the Nile possibly wiping out the newly rebuilt and more magnificent Heliopolis II built by the same hebrews pharaoh was pursuing. So there!

[Cognito]

Let's finish this one first. I know you are anxious to "crucify" me and every other Judeo-Christian who ventured into your 'world' but I really want to finish this because I have more questions.

FM, I for one am enjoying the discussions between you and Marduk and your critique on the Sumerian King's List is appreciated. Crucifixion went out of style many years ago, and you will find that this forum is fairly moderate except when religious faith is provided in lieu of proof. After all, this is supposed to be a scientifically-based forum. I would love to jump into the middle of the texts right now, but paintball beckons and I have many targets to kill before returning home.