Archaeologica.org

Interesting, Charlie.

THis is where you need a geologist.
Where is Paul H?

Perhaps a metallurgist. Tomorrow I'll show the pictures to a good one. Don't know what he can tell by looking (without chem anaylsis and all) but you never know.

Thanks guys. Yeah, the more advice from pro types, the better.
Steve Kissin, a geologist/ metallurgist, has been conducting analyses
of the furnaces, lead type material found in situ in the furnace, and associated roasted pyrite. He was the first geologist to take interest in the site. Here's a few quotes from Steve:

From: Stephen A. Kissin, Ph.D.
Date: 01/11/06 10:21:15
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: Possible Prehistoric Furnace and Metal Working

Dear Mr. Hatchett
As far as the ideas about the site are concerned, it certainly looks as if pyrite was roasted there. However, to produce iron from pyrite (or any other oxidized form of iron), one would need a reducing agent, presumably charcoal. This would be rather emphemeral in an ancient site, so there may be no trace of it. The idea that there is a blow-hole as suggested in your photo is interesting, as that would be necessary in order to produce the temperature required to reduce the iron. Although the pictured seashell cannot be identified from the photo, if it is indeed a seashell, it, along with a lot more, could provide a fluxing agent for removal of impurities, chiefly silicon. It would not be a source of manganese. All this suggests that the site is plausibly an iron reduction factory of sorts. I caution you that it is by no means definite, as more investigation would certainly be required to confirm this.
The big question I have at the moment is the establishment of a preClovis age. How did you establish this? In this context, the site could be an early, but historic factory for the recovery of sulfur, which could be readily recovered by roasting of pyrite. This is a necessary component for production of black powder. Hence, firm establishment of the age is very important.
If you have detached a small bit of the metal or metal (the lead-like material), these can be readily identified as to both composition and texture with our facilities here. What would you like to do?
I will speak to my friend from San Antonio, an archeologist who is part of our geoarcheology program and a specialist on the Southwest.
Sincerely,
Stephen A. Kissin, Ph.D.


II.
From: Dr. Steve Kissin
Date: 01/11/06 13:48:10
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: Possible Prehistoric Furnace and Metal Working
Dear Mr. Hatchett:
Very interesting photos of the artifacts, especially those you have identified as Clovis type. We have in our area a "paleo-Indian" culture that is 9000 years B.P., dated by radiocarbon dates on shorelines of former shorelines of ancestral Lake Superior. These artifacts are fairly well crafted, resembling much more recent material, but made of local cherts derived from the Gunflint Formation, rather than trade material seen in more recent materials.
The dating of your deposit is valid as far as it goes, but there is the question as to whether the artifact-containing alluvium actually did cover the furnace area after its function. There are sophisticated means of determining this, but they are not available from me. If there were preClovis iron production going on, this would topple all sorts of ideas and, in fact, would preceed iron production in Europe. I think at that point others would interested in applying sophisticated dating methods to the site.
But to the point, if you are agreeable to sending a specimen of the metals to me, I can see what they are quite readily. I need only very small samples, ca. 1 gram. If you wish, I have a loan agreement that I can get to you.

Stephen Kissin


-------Original Message-------

From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 01/11/06 15:04:38
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: Possible Prehistoric Furnace and Metal Working

I forgot to answer your question. Actually, a small sample would be entirely sufficient. If it is worth a follow-up, we can see what might be needed.
By the way, how close are you to Universal City? My best friend from high school lives there. He visited me in Idaho where I was on sabbatical in spring of 2004.
Stephen Kissin

IV.

-------Original Message-------

From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 01/11/06 15:54:33
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: Possible Prehistoric Furnace and Metal Working

It would be nice to get down there in January or February, although this winter has been extremely mild so far. In fact, temperatures have been continuously above normal since early December.
Anyway, my mailing address is:
Dr. Stephen A. Kissin
Department of Geology
Lakehead University
Thunder Bay, Ontario
P7B 5E1
Canada
You will need to put a customs declaration form on the package. Say:
Scientific specimen: Mineral specimen, no commercial value.
SAK

V.

-------Original Message-------

From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 01/17/06 12:43:43
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: Re: Fw: Possible Prehistoric Furnace and Metal Working

Charlie:
It just arrived via DHL. I had a quick look and checked the specimens with a strong magnet. There is no metallic iron in any of them. However, both types of specimens are surprisingly dense, considering the sedimentary rock terrain in which they occur. That brings up a point - could you tell me in which county the site is located? As in big Texas, I know that the counties are relatively small in most cases.
As for the specimens, I am completely mystified at the moment. I will proceed immediately to get small polished thin sections made of bits of them for microscopic and SEM examination. I had a talk with my archeologist friend, originally from San Antonio. As he is retired, he doesn't really want to take on anything else, but he did mention two points to consider. First, the artifact assemblage in the alluvium is apparently mixed, which makes any dating of the site on this basis problematical. Secondly, he is dubious about the obviously older artifacts being of Clovis age.
In any case, the specimens look very interesting, whether they are of natural or human origin. I will get right on the case. I do have a break in mid-February and a lot of points with Air Canada. How far are you from Dallas? This is the only place Air Canada flies to in Texas aside from Houston. There is some interaction with United, but I don't know if my points will apply with them.

Steve Kissin

VI.
From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 01/17/06 15:29:51
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: Re: Fw: Possible Prehistoric Furnace and Metal Working


Charlie:
I see that your site is just off I-35. That is a straight run from Duluth, which is about 200 miles south of here. Maybe I could even drive. Anyway, well see how interesting the stuff is. Actually, annealed cast iron is relatively soft in comparison with most earth materials. My lab technician is already working on the samples.



VII.

From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 01/24/06 16:31:53
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: microscopic examination of materials


Charlie:
I examined the polished surfaces that I just got back today. Both are very strange. The hard material looks like pyrite in terms of both color and some crystal faces that are visible. It is, however, composed of a lot of very small mostly irregularly shaped particles, about 0.1mm diameter. Something must be binding them, or the material would crumble relatively easily. It could conceivably be natural material, i.e. a pyrite concretion. I would expect a sort of layered structure in this case, however. The concretion would have formed within the limestone, so could be attached, as you seem to have observed.
The soft material, thought to be lead, is composed of many very tiny particles, about 0.01mm diameter. I have no idea now what this stuff might be but it looks to be man-made, but probably not of ancient origin.
I will check out the compositions on the scanning electron microscope as soon as I can get on the machine.
Steve

VIII.
From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 01/25/06 14:23:43
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: Re: microscopic examination of materials


Charlie:
The images you sent are at a much different scale from the one I was using. In fact, I overestimated the diameter of the particles; they are less than 0.1 mm in diameter. I just came off our brand new super Olympus microscope system where I took photos of both specimens. As soon as I find out how to download them, I will send them to you as computer images. I am now 99% sure that the hard material is pyrite, formed as a concretion in the limestone when it underwent diagenesis. Diagenesis is the name for the process of crystallization whereby a sediment, carbonate mud in this case, becomes a sedimentary rock.
I am still mystified by the soft material. It seems to be a man-made composite material, as you can see at least two components under the microscope. There of very fine grains within a matrix as some sort.
Steve

IX.
From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 01/27/06 16:37:20
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: Re: Pyrite Pieces


Charlie:
I would say that the first thing to do would be to text for attraction to a magnet. Use a strong magnet; i.e. not a fridge magnet. This will tell whether iron metal is involved or not.
I cannot say anything about working on specimens, i.e. working into tools. That will take an experienced archeologist. Unless you had some idea about heat treatment of the artifacts, I cannot be of much help on other stony materials, except to say something about provenance of the materials themselves.
It is difficult to say anything about your additional pictures. The first one (metal17?) looks like pyrite on the surface, but on the edge looks different, but it is an oblique angle. I think that it would be best to wait until Monday. I will send the specimens back to you after my quick analysis, and you could then compare the fresh surfaces with your other materials.

Steve




X.
From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 01/30/06 17:44:38
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: SEM results

Charlie:
Here are the qualitative SEM results:
Hard material: As I suspected, it is pyrite. It is definitely natural material - a pyrite concretion.
Soft material : This is a man-made composite consisting of a strip of lead with grains of what appears to be a silicone material.


XI.
From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 02/09/06 10:16:09
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: Back to you


Hello Charlie:
Sorry for the slow response, but I have been a bit tied up. First, I have attached two tifs of the hard material (pyrite) and the soft material that you sent. The files are large because of the fine structure involved. The hard material shows up as pyrite in the photo. One can see the cube edges on the outer portion of the specimen. The composition was verified in the SEM.
The soft material shows light, translucent particles, which are the silicone material, in a lead matrix. The occasional dark grains are sand.
As for your finds, both really do look man-made. Have you been able to determine if the blowholes connect to the rectangular pits? The round particles are interesting. Do they appear to be lead or what?
My thought is that this may be a metallurgical site, but I have the feeling that it may be historic, perhaps a place where bullets were cast. If the round particles are lead, that would support the idea.
I will run the artifacts past my archeologist friend, although he has protested that he is not an expert on Texas archeology.
Steve Kissin


XII.

From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 05/26/06 13:57:22
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: back again

Charlie:
There is potentially a lot to examine in the pictures you have sent. In order to proceed step-wise, I think for now it might be best to stick to my original idea of examining the furnace wall material and a comparison piece of unaltered rock. This might give me a better idea of what is happening there.
Some of the other materials definitely are metallurgical products, but I don't think that the shell forms are shells, but probably also pourings.
Steve


XIII.

From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 06/26/06 15:29:48
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: examination of the furnace materials


Charlie:
I had a look at the polished thin sections. There is not a lot of difference between the furnace wall sample and the rock from 20 feet away. Both are surprising opaque in transmitted light, and although it is not obvious in the hand specimens, this apparently due to finely dispersed carbon. These two specimens are really striking in that they are positively loaded with marine microfossils. I can get a picture for you if you would like.
The furnace wall sample is slightly bleached, suggesting a loss of carbon (through heating?). It also contains some very minor red iron oxyhydroxide FeO(OH). This also might be an effect of the heating.
Steve

I just sent him photos of the hypothesized slag and the iron stained, charred cobble stratum:

Unit Lima- Bed Igl- ISCC (iron stained and charred cobbles)



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site53.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site54.jpg

Steve plans to visit the site early this Summer. Here's his bio:

http://geology.lakeheadu.ca/wp/?pg=31

Charlie,
A metallurgist I know just looked at your pictures of slag. He is a steel plant metallurgist and they frequently look at and analyse slag as part a way of measuring the cleanliness of the process. Many things can be told just by the color and his first comment, since there was little black or dark grey, the refining must be quite good since they are reducing the ore very thoroughly. There are relatively few iron residuals. When he saw the yellow colored slag, he thought either that was dirt or they were melting pyrite which is higher in sulfur (we had not at that point seen any indication in the posts they may have been melting pyrite).

As for glass-like slags, he thought they were common in cases where the slag is thin and contains high concentrations of silica, as you may have already surmised. The porosity is typical of all slags since various gases are released through the slag during the processing.

Beyond that, he felt chemical analysis would give you the additional answers you may need about composition. Seems metallurgists are just highly specialized chemists afterall.

Cheers to the team down there.

Charlie Hatchett wrote:From: Stephen A. Kissin
Date: 01/30/06 17:44:38
To: Charlie Hatchett
Subject: SEM results

Charlie:
Here are the qualitative SEM results:
Hard material: As I suspected, it is pyrite. It is definitely natural material - a pyrite concretion.
Soft material : This is a man-made composite consisting of a strip of lead with grains of what appears to be a silicone material.

Just for clarity, he probably meant 'silicon' since 'silicone' is a man-made material.

Charlie,
A metallurgist I know just looked at your pictures of slag. He is a steel plant metallurgist and they frequently look at and analyse slag as part a way of measuring the cleanliness of the process. Many things can be told just by the color and his first comment, since there was little black or dark grey, the refining must be quite good since they are reducing the ore very thoroughly. There are relatively few iron residuals. When he saw the yellow colored slag, he thought either that was dirt or they were melting pyrite which is higher in sulfur (we had not at that point seen any indication in the posts they may have been melting pyrite).

As for glass-like slags, he thought they were common in cases where the slag is thin and contains high concentrations of silica, as you may have already surmised. The porosity is typical of all slags since various gases are released through the slag during the processing.

Beyond that, he felt chemical analysis would give you the additional answers you may need about composition. Seems metallurgists are just highly specialized chemists afterall.

Cheers to the team down there.

Wow! Thanks Monk. Very quick and thorough. Do you think your friend would be interested in analyzing a few of these pieces. Steve is also a teaching prof, and has several graduate students reporting to him. So he's going to be quite busy until May.

So your friend thinks these guys were doing a good job at refining the metals...that's wild! Not only does it appear to be very old smelting, but they were doing a good job at it.

I think you may be right concerning the silicone versus silcon issue. I'll clarify with Steve.

Again, thanks.

Charlie Hatchett wrote:Do you think your friend would be interested in analyzing a few of these pieces.

I have no problem asking him, problem is, if he can do it, he will likely use a spectrometer, which is a destructive test. The samples will likely be ruined and unreturnable. Its not a question of willingness its a question of ability since slag samples are usually drawn in special molds adapted for the instruments.

I'll let you know.

I have no problem asking him, problem is, if he can do it, he will likely use a spectrometer, which is a destructive test. The samples will likely be ruined and unreturnable. Its not a question of willingness its a question of ability since slag samples are usually drawn in special molds adapted for the instruments.

I'll let you know.

Excellent, Monk.

I would certainly be willing to destruct a few of the smaller pieces, to gain more info.

Thanks a million.

Charlie Hatchett wrote:I would certainly be willing to destruct a few of the smaller pieces, to gain more info.

The process requires a sample(s) about the size of a golf ball (doesn't have to be round - just about the same volume). It is crushed, mixed with a chemical to homogenous it, and pressed into a mold of the same type used for analysis directly from the furnace or ladle. This is basically a semi-circular lollipop about 1/4" thick and maybe 2" dia. max. It is then run through a spectro which burns it. The machine makes several burns and averages the results. It is very possible a result cannot be obtained depending on several factors, in which case your sample is gone and nothing to show for it.

I can't make any guarantees about anything but I will PM you with more details. You can make the decision about whether to proceed.

The process requires a sample(s) about the size of a golf bar (doesn't have to be round - just about the same volume). It is crushed, mixed with a chemical to homogenous it, and pressed into a mold of the same type used for analysis directly from the furnace or ladle. This is basically a semi-circular lollipop about 1/4" thick and maybe 2" dia. max. It is then run through a spectro which burns it. The machine makes several burns and averages the results. It is very possible a result cannot be obtained depending on several factors, in which case your sample is gone and nothing to show for it.

I can't make any guarantees about anything but I will PM you with more details. You can make the decision about whether to proceed.

Thanks Monk! If there's a fairly good chance of getting a firm result, I think it will be worth it. I'll definitely read the details.

I'm liking what I'm seeing in the top ten results, for keyword "preClovis", in the Google database:

1.

PreClovis Artifacts from Central Texas.
PreClovis, Clovis,and Archaic Artifacts from Central Texas.
www.preclovis.com/

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2.

Clovis / Pre Clovis Debate
From Mark McConaughy, a page on supposedly preclovis Topper site, based on the paper given at the Southeastern Clovis Conference in 2005. ...
http://www.archaeology.about.com/od/clo ... Debate.htm

PreClovis Culture
PreClovis culture is the term used by archaeologists to refer to the admittedly controversial evidence for human occupations in the Americas before 11200 ...

www.archaeology.about.com/od/pterms/g/preclovis.htm



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3.

(PreClovis) A Pre-Clovis Site in Ohio?
This is a presentation of artifacts unearthed at a potential pre-Clovis habitation site in southeastern Ohio.
www.daysknob.com/

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4.

Online Archaeology Forums - Possible PreClovis Artifacts from ...
Below are examples of what I believe to be PreClovis ... Others may have been recycled at a later date (preclovis 20190, preclovis 20206. ...
http://www.online-archaeology.co.uk/for ... PIC_ID=809


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5.

Index of /
Index of /. Name Last modified Size Description. [DIR] Parent Directory 03-Oct-2006 12:08 -. Apache/1.3.34 Server at preclovis.net Port 80.
www.preclovis.net/

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6.

PreClovis, Clovis, and Archaic Artifacts from Central Texas.
PreClovis, Clovis, and Archaic stone and metal (iron) artifacts.
http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... dians.html

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7.

Anthro TECH Discussion Forum: Archaeology: Potential PreClovis ...
I've been finding some interesting Clovis and possible preClovis artifacts in a recently ... Recently discovered artifacts, found in preClovis contexts: ...
www.anthrotech.com/forum/?showtopic=351


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8.

Archaeologyfieldwork.com - Update on PreClovis Finds in Central Texas
Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Dorsal View- 6.625"- Lima B-Igl ... Possible PreClovis Hand Ax- Ventral View- 8" x 5"- Tango C-Igl ...
http://www.archaeologyfieldwork.com/cgi ... 907174/138


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9.

Potential PreClovis Artifacts From Central Texas | Anthropology.net
Another Possible PreClovis Uniface- Dorsal View, Base to the Right - Lima-Igl ... Possible PreClovis Uniface- Basal View, Dorsal Side to the Right, ...

http://www.anthropology.net/forums/anth ... tral_texas

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10.

Anthro TECH Discussion Forum: Archaeology: Re: Re: Potential ...
Re: Re: Potential PreClovis Finds in Central Texas. Subject:, Re: Re: Potential PreClovis ... Another Possible PreClovis Uniface- Dorsal View- Lima-Igl ...

www.anthrotech.com/forum/?showtopic=481

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Certainly can't hurt., though I'd like to see our discussion here at www.archaeologica.org in that top 10.

Congrats, charlie.
You could put a link to this forum on your sites.

Certainly can't hurt., though I'd like to see our discussion here at www.archaeologica.org in that top 10.

It has been Charlie - in fact #1. But Google uses a logorythmic calculation that changes constantly. You may have posted in some of those websites more recently.

Yes, Charlie this forum has slipped to page 3 under that search term

Archaeologica.org :: View topic - PreClovis Iron Smelting in TexasPost Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:09 am Post subject: PreClovis Iron Smelting ... To date, the following evidence is offered up as evidence of preClovis iron ...
archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewtopic.php?t=279&sid=99fc068bfb3585fdcbf58400ba162ce1 - 86k - Cached - Similar pages

however, it is good to see your site high in that list and Alan's too... I was hoping I could help you out on this one, but unfortunately the access I have to analyse clickstreams and traffic is for UK sites only...

Congrats, charlie.
You could put a link to this forum on your sites.

Will do, immediately. I'll replace the anthrotech forum with this one. Hope it doesn't screw me, though. I don't think it should. There's alot more traffic here.

It has been Charlie - in fact #1. But Google uses a logorythmic calculation that changes constantly. You may have posted in some of those websites more recently.

Yeah, who knows? I don't understand the nuances much.

however, it is good to see your site high in that list and Alan's too... I was hoping I could help you out on this one, but unfortunately the access I have to analyse clickstreams and traffic is for UK sites only...

Yeah, Alan's number 3.

Congrats, charlie.
You could put a link to this forum on your sites.

O.K., done.

Let's give it 3-4 weeks, and see if it helps.

Charley, not really following all of this but, if you really want to know how much traffic your getting and from where, do a google search for "google analytics". Register with them and they give a code snippet you insert in the body text of your web page. ITS ALL FREE.

You can then get full reports on page hits, returning vs. first timers, where geographically the hits are coming from, referring websites, what theyre looking at and how far they drilldown, so on and so on.