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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:20 pm
by seeker
That's what created the synoptic problem. You had successive gospels that added detail, a situation that is simply not possible if the story was real. To complicate matters it was obvious that Matthew and Luke had copied whole sections of Mark

On typical fundie fashion no one ever considered that there was no Q.

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:03 pm
by Minimalist
Ishtar wrote:
seeker wrote:The only thing that makes it difficult is that you have so many ideologues pushing this or that point of view along with outright liars like Eusebius its hard get through the weeds.

Ish - I don't think Freke and Gandy made anything up but i do think they tend to sensationalism.
I feel stupid for missing that Q thing ... I should have spotted it.

You shouldn't feel bad about that, Ish. Now, if you believed that the literalist tale really happened as written in their 'gospels' (like a certain person we all know!) then you could feel bad.

Caparisons are Invidious

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:19 pm
by john
All -

As the Galapagos Tortoise said

"Caparisons are invidious"..................

http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_gr.html

Welcome to the Spermatikos Logos
"I am meant to remember. Each clue that comes is supposed to have its own clarity, its fine chances for permanence. But then she wondered if the gemlike 'clues' were only some kind of compensation. To make up for her having lost the direct, epileptic Word, the cry that might abolish the night."


Why "Spermatikos Logos?"
Trying to formulate one single phrase to encompass the entirety of the Pynchon oeuvre could put you, as Oedipa Maas might say, into "orbiting paranoia!"

Yet, each reader of Pynchon brings to the works his or her own set of organizing principles. Pynchon's writings cannot merely be accepted, passively, as if we are Isaac under the blade. . . . No. They must be constantly Re-created in the specific mind of the Ideal reader which is you. Each will have his own personal Rocket, as it says in Gravity's Rainbow, as each will have his or her own personal conveyance to whisk them to a unique personal source of Meaning.

Our connection to the Locus of Understanding has been designated as The Spermatikos Logos, because Pynchon may have given the apprehension of the Word special meaning. Such theoreticians of the Logos as the Stoics, the Jewish philosopher Philo, and the early Christian apologist Justin Martyr, thought of the Divine Principle as seminal, germinating, in every sense a Spermatikos Logos. Justin actually writes of "the seed of reason . . . implanted in every race of man." The Word is "spermatic," vivifying, fertilizing and awakening in us what has lain dormant for so long within the Sleep of Reason.

Therefore, we try to follow, like so many of Pynchon's characters -- from the Stencils, through the Maas's, the Grover Snodds, and the Mondaugens, to the singing Fools -- the journey of the Word as it passes from the mythical realm of a priori certainty along the Parabola of Disassociation down into the realms of multiplicity we call reality. We know it is there. Borges before, and Pynchon after, have seen it. It is there, in the soft dusk of mirrors out of which something [is] about to walk. . . .

The graphic frontispiece that begins this page, tucked into one of the multitudinous corners of the Libyrinth of Allexamina bears the name of only one of a plethora of decoding strategies. It is for us, and perhaps for others, a means to receive The Spermatikos Logos.

The graphic design is set on a field which shows the expanding green of fertility growing out of the centre of a square pyramid. This geometric solid is a pentahedron, and, as such, represents the five novels. Dominating the piece are the two V's which represent the first and the fourth novels -- V and Vineland -- the apogee and nadir of the Pynchon oeuvre thus far!! One V is violet, the other grey -- specifically to give a sense of beginning and ending.

The golden numbers 4 and 9 -- many thanks to Frank Stella -- are for The Crying of Lot 49. Added together, they are 13, which gives 1 + 3, which is 4, as was emphasized earlier. 4 is also the number of Spring; 9 the number of Lunar wisdom.

Woven through the lines of the pyramid and between the letters of the V's, is the intricate, multiplied symbol which we have made for Gravity's Rainbow. It is the colour of a rocket exhaust, and in it you see the Rocket itself, on its stand, the parabolic shape of the Rainbow, and, if you are truly Initiated, a map or a plan of the Raketenstadt, surely the dwelling place of all Paranoids. . . .

The number 13, at the topmost pinnacle of the design, is red. Its colour represents the Passion which frees the Spermatikos Logos to wend its way serpentitiously from on High to the apex of the V's -- surely the most feminine, chthonic, and fecund of locales we might know in this, the earthly Gaia which we inhabit.

13 is the number which Aleister Crowley chose for the Death card of the Major Arcana of his Tarot deck, a card which spins out the chance of change, re-birth, fertility, and renewal. On the Tree of Life depicted in his Kabbala, it is the path which links Netzach with Tiphareth. The link takes us from the Active Way to the Central Way to Kether, or Avalon -- at the tip of the Tree -- and then, possibly, beyond, to Ain Soph Aur. This path is symbolized by the Astrological sign Scorpio, and also by the Fish and the Hebrew word Nun.

It is thus that we have included this word at the centre of the Spermatikos symbol. It floats there as the Fish, carried on the undulations of the sperm's tail, truly nestled in a net of apexes which looks like a flower whose foliations are made, singularly, of many V's.

Below it is the dark oval packet of information which would, if the sperm had been biological, carry enough genetic information to create a new life. But here, the oval is the Word which, when it touches the mind, explodes into Meaning. . . .

We will read the Pynchon texts as documents found on the quest for Meaning, whether it be by means of cogitated re-formulation, merest chance, or a blast of Divine Inspiration.

Read on; seek; know.


hoka hey

john


ps

Well, its one for the money,
Two for the show,
Three to get ready,
Now go, cat, go.

But dont you step on my blue suede shoes.
You can do anything but lay off of my blue suede shoes.

Well, you can knock me down,
Step in my face,
Slander my name
All over the place.

Do anything that you want to do, but uh-uh,
Honey, lay off of my shoes
Dont you step on my blue suede shoes.
You can do anything but lay off of my blue suede shoes.

You can burn my house,
Steal my car,
Drink my liquor
From an old fruitjar.

Do anything that you want to do, but uh-uh,
Honey, lay off of my shoes
Dont you step on my blue suede shoes.
You can do anything but lay off of my blue suede shoes.


j

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:07 am
by Ishtar
I feel that it would be good to get a new persepctive on what we're discussing - to approach it from another angle, and to look at the question: Whatever became of the Essenes/Theraputae?

This is because if they survived, or went underground, much of what they continued to practice can teach us more about the roots of Christianity.

So I asked myself the question, if they did continue to exist, where would they be? The answer I got was that they would be like a secret society, like the Masons, and so I decided to look into this a bit.

I'm sure many are aware of the American founding father Thomas Paine's essay, "The Origin of Freemasonary". But this is the first time I've read it through properly, and I found so much that ties in both with what we've been discussing here (the Theraputae, the Essenes) and also what we learned in the Jesus Astro thread.

So I'm going to post pretty well most of it and I've added in a few notes and questions to Min and Seeker who both, no doubt, will know this off by heart! :D

I do apologise for its length (and for that reason, I'm going to put it in the next post without quote marks, to make it easier to read.) But I think you'll find it all makes for fascinating reading - unlike the random auto-generated text of James Joyce on LSD of John's last post. :lol:

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:21 am
by Ishtar
To come then at once to the point, Masonry (as I shall show from the customs, ceremonies, hieroglyphics, and chronology of Masonry) is derived and is the remains of the religion of the ancient Druids; who, like the magi of Persia and the priests of Heliopolis in Egypt [Theraputae? – Ish], were priests of the sun. They paid worship to this great luminary, as the great visible agent of a great invisible first cause, whom they styled "Time without limits."

The Christian religion and Masonry have one and the same common origin: both are derived from the worship of the sun. The difference between their origin is, that the Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the sun, as I have shown in the chapter on the origin of the Christian religion. [Paine calls it a parody – I would call it an astrotheitical allegory or teaching story for initiates – Ish].

In Masonry many of the ceremonies of the Druids are preserved in their original state, at least without any parody. With them the sun is still the sun; and his image in the form of the sun is the great emblematical ornament of Masonic lodges and Masonic dresses. It is the central figure on their aprons, and they wear it also pendant on the breast of their lodges, and in their processions. It has the figure of a man, as at the head of the sun, as Christ is always represented.

At what period of antiquity, or in what nation, this religion was first established, is lost in the labyrinth of unrecorded time. It is generally ascribed to the ancient Egyptians, the Babylonians and Chaldeans, and reduced afterwards to a system regulated by the apparent progress of the sun through the twelve signs of the zodiac by Zoroaster the lawgiver of Persia [Seeker, where does Zoroaster talk about astrology? Maybe Paine means Magi – Ish] from whence Pythagoras brought it into Greece.

The worship of the sun as the great visible agent of a great invisible first cause, "Time without limits," spread itself over a considerable part of Asia and Africa, from thence to Greece and Rome, through all ancient Gaul, and into Britain and Ireland.

Smith, in his chapter on the antiquity of Masonry in Britain, says,that "notwithstanding the obscurity which envelops Masonic history in that country, various circumstances contribute to prove that Freemasonry was introduced into Britain about 1,030 years before Christ."

It cannot be Masonry in its present state that Smith here alludes to. The Druids flourished in Britain at the period he speaks of, and it is from them that Masonry is descended. Smith has put the child in the place of the parent.

It sometimes happens, as well in writing as in conversation, that a person lets slip an expression that serves to unravel what he intends to conceal, and this is the case with Smith, for in the same chapter he says, "The Druids, when they committed anything to writing, used the Greek alphabet, and I am bold to assert that the most perfect remains of the Druids' rites and ceremonies are preserved in the customs and ceremonies of the Masons that are to be found existing among mankind. My brethren," says he, "may be able to trace them with greater exactness than I am at liberty to explain to the public."

This is a confession from a Master Mason, without intending it to be so understood by the public, that Masonry is the remains of the religion of the Druids; the reasons for the Masons keeping this a secret I shall explain in the course of this work.

As the study and contemplation of the Creator is in the works of the creation, the sun, as the great visible agent of that Being, was the visible object of the adoration of the Druids; all their religious rites and ceremonies had reference to the apparent progress of the sun through the twelve signs of the zodiac, and his influence upon the Earth.

The Masons adopt the same practices. The roof of their temples or lodges is ornamented with a sun, and the floor is a representation of the variegated face of the earth either by carpeting or mosaic work. [evidence of zodiacs in the floors of northern kingdom synagogues – Ish]

Freemasons' Hall, in Great Queen Street, Lincoln's Inn Fields, London, is a magnificent building, and cost upward of 12,000 pounds sterling. Smith, in speaking of this building, says (page 152), "The roof of this magnificent hall is in all probability the highest piece of finished architecture in Europe. In the center of this roof, a most resplendent sun is represented in burnished gold, surrounded with the twelve signs of the zodiac, with their respective characters.

After giving this description, he says, "The emblematical meaning of the sun is well known to the enlightened and inquisitive Freemason; and as the real sun is situated in the center of the universe, so the emblematical sun is the center of real Masonry. We all know" continues he, "that the sun is the fountain of light, the source of the seasons, the cause of the vicissitudes of day and night, the parent of vegetation, the friend of man; hence the scientific Freemason only knows the reason why the sun is placed in the center of this beautiful hall."

The Masons, in order to protect themselves from the persecution of the Christian Church, have always spoken in a mystical manner of the figure of the sun in their lodges, or, like the astronomer Lalande, who is a Mason, been silent upon the subject.

It is their secret, especially in Catholic countries, because the figure of the sun is the expressive criterion that denotes they are descended from the Druids, and that wise, elegant, philosophical religion was the faith opposite to the faith of the gloomy Christian Church. ...

The high festival of the Masons is on the day they call St. John's day; but every enlightened Mason must know that holding their festival on this day has no reference to the person called St. John, and that it is only to disguise the true cause of holding it on this day, that they call the day by that name. As there were Masons, or at least Druids, many centuries before the time of St. John, if such a person ever existed, the holding their festival on this day must refer to some cause totally unconnected with John.

The case is, that the day called St. John's day, is the twenty-fourth of June, and is what is called midsummer day . The sun is then arrived at the summer solstice; and, with respect to his meridianal altitude, or height at high noon, appears for some days to be of the same height.

The astronomical longest day, like the shortest day, is not every year, on the same numerical day, and therefore the twenty-fourth of June is always taken for midsummer day; and it is in honor of the sun, which has then arrived at his greatest height in our hemisphere, and not anything with respect to St. John, that this annual festival of the Masons, taken from the Druids, is celebrated on midsummer day.

Customs will often outlive the remembrance of their origin, and this is the case with respect to a custom still practiced in Ireland, where the Druids flourished at the time they flourished in Britain.

On the eve of St. John's day, that is, on the eve of midsummer day, the Irish light fires on the tops of the hills. This can have no reference to St. John; but it has emblematical reference to the sun, which on that day is at his highest summer elevation, and might in common language be said to have arrived at the top of the hill.

[This next bit assumes that there was literally a Solomon’s temple – it was written before archaeology threw doubt on such claims. However, even if it is mythological, it is still interesting in that Josiah’s supposed overthrow of the ‘high places’ could also be an allegory and not literal, and not just for a move from monotheism to polytheism, but also a move from sun worship – Ish]

As to what Masons, and books of Masonry, tell us of Solomon's Temple at Jerusalem, it is no wise improbable that some Masonic ceremonies may have been derived from the building of that temple, for the worship of the sun was in practice many centuries before the temple existed, or before the Israelites came out of Egypt. And we learn from the history of the Jewish kings, II Kings xxiii, that the worship of the sun was performed by the Jews in that temple.

It is, however, much to be doubted if it was done with the same scientific purity and religious morality with which it was performed by the Druids, who, by all accounts that historically remain of them, were a wise, learned, and moral class of men. The Jews, on the contrary, were ignorant of astronomy, and of science in general, and if a religion founded upon astronomy fell into their hands, it is almost certain it would be corrupted.

We do not read in the history of the Jews whether in the Bible or elsewhere, that they were the inventors or the improvers of any one art or science. Even in the building of this temple, the Jews did not know how to square and frame the timber for beginning and carrying on the work, and Solomon was obliged to send to Hiram, King of Tyre (Zidon), to procure workmen; "for thou knowest" (says Solomon to Hiram, I Kings v, 6), "that there is not among us any that can skill to hew timber like unto the Zidonians."

This temple was more properly Hiram's Temple than Solomon's, and if the Masons derive anything from the building of it, they owe it to the Zidonians and not to the Jews. But to return to the worship of the sun in this temple.

It is said, II Kings xxiii, 5, "And [King Josiah] put down all the idolatrous priests . . . that burned incense unto . . . the sun, the moon, the planets, and all the host of heaven." And it is said at the eleventh verse: "And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the Lord . . . and burned the chariot of the sun with fire"; verse 13, "And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the King of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth, the abomination of the Zidonians" (the very people that built the temple) "did the king defile."

[This bit "And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun” is obviously a poetic reference and not literal, so maybe the whole thing is an allegory? – Ish]

Besides these things, the description that Josephus gives of the decorations of this temple [Min, does Josephus say this? – Ish], resembles on a large scale those of a Mason's lodge. He says that the distribution of the several parts of the Temple of the Jews represented all nature, particularly the parts most apparent of it, as the sun, moon, the planets, the zodiac, the earth, the elements; and that the system of the world was retraced there by numerous ingenious emblems.

These, in all probability, are, what Josiah, in his ignorance, calls the abominations of the Zidonians.* Everything, however, drawn from this temple, and applied to Masonry, still refers to the worship of the sun, however corrupted or misunderstood by the Jews, and consequently to the religion of the Druids.

Another circumstance, which shows that Masonry is derived from some ancient system, prior to and unconnected with the Christian religion, is the chronology, or method of counting time, used by the Masons in the records of their lodges. They make no use of what is called the Christian era; and they reckon their months numerically, as the ancient Egyptians did, and as the Quakers do now.

I have by me, a record of a French lodge, at the time the late Duke of Orleans, then Duke de Chartres, was Grand Master of Masonry in France. It begins as follows: "the thirteenth day of the sixth month of the year of the Venerable Lodge, 5773.”

[As I was saying earlier, once you get rid of all the nonsense about something actually literally happening between 1 and 32 CE, it throws the whole question wide open and we can see that what is Christianity in all but name was being practised in the preceding centuries to the so-called "Christian era". ]

By what I observe in English books of Masonry, the English Masons use the initials A. L. and not V. L. By A. L. they mean in the year of Light, as the Christians by A.D. mean in the year of our Lord. But A. L. like V. L. refers to the same chronological era, that is, to the supposed time of the Creation.

In the chapter on the Christian religion, I have shown that the cosmogony, that is the account of the Creation with which the book of Genesis opens, has been taken and mutilated from the Zend-Avesta of Zoroaster, and was fixed as a preface to the Bible after the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon, and that the rabbins of the Jews do not hold their account in Genesis to be a fact, but mere allegory [Really? Who are these rabbins then? And do they know Arch? – Ish] . The six thousand years in the Zend-Avesta, is changed or interpolated into six days in the account of Genesis.

The Masons appear to have chosen the same period, and perhaps to avoid the suspicion and persecution of the Church, have adopted the era of the world, as the era of Masonry. The V. L. of the French, and the A. L. of the English Mason, answer to the A. M. Anno Mundi, or year of the world.

Though the Masons have taken many of their ceremonies and hieroglyphics from the ancient Egyptians, it is certain they have not taken their chronology from thence. If they had, the Church would soon have sent them to the stake; as the chronology of the Egyptians, like that of the Chinese, goes many thousand years beyond the Bible chronology.
The religion of the Druids, as before said, was the same as the religion of the ancient Egyptians. The priests of Egypt were the professors and teachers of science, and were styled priests of Heliopolis, that is, of the City of the Sun. [Does he mean the Theraputae from Alexandria? Ish]

The Druids in Europe, who were the same order of men, have their name from the Teutonic or ancient German language; the Germans being anciently called Teutons. The word Druid signifies a wise man. In Persia they were called magi, which signifies the same thing.

"Egypt, says Smith, "from whence we derive many of our mysteries, has always borne a distinguished rank in history, and was once celebrated above all others for its antiquities, learning, opulence, and fertility. In their system, their principal hero-gods, Osiris and Isis, theologically represented the Supreme Being and universal nature; and physically the two great celestial luminaries, the sun and the moon, by whose influence all nature was actuated.

"The experienced brethren of the Society" says Smith in a note to this passage, "are well informed what affinity these symbols bear to Masonry, and why they are used in all Masonic lodges."

In speaking of the apparel of the Masons in their lodges, part of which, as we see in their public processions, is a white leather apron, he says, "the Druids were apparelled in white at the time of their sacrifices and solemn offices. The Egyptian priests of Osiris wore snow-white cotton [Josephus tells us that Essenes dressed similarly and some scholars believe that the Theraputae and the Essenes were just different branches of the same religion – Ish]. The Grecian and most other priests wore white garments. As Masons, we regard the principles of those who were the first worshipers of the true God, imitate their apparel, and assume the badge of innocence."

"The Egyptians," continues Smith, "in the earliest ages constituted a great number of lodges, but with assiduous care kept their secrets of Masonry from all strangers. These secrets have been imperfectly handed down to us by oral tradition only, and ought to be kept undiscovered to the laborers, craftsmen, and apprentices, till by good behaviour and long study they become better acquainted in geometry and the liberal arts, and thereby qualified for masters and wardens, which is seldom or never the case with English Masons." [It is no better hundreds of years later. My father has been an English mason for nearly 40 years, and he has not been told a single word of all this! – Ish]

Under the head of Freemasonry, written by the astronomer Lalande, in the French Encyclopedia, I expected from his great knowledge in astronomy, to have found much information on the origin of Masonry; for what connection can there be between any institution and the sun and twelve signs of the zodiac, if there be not something in that institution, or in its origin, that has reference to astronomy?

Everything used as a hieroglyphic has reference to the subject and purpose for initials A. L. and not V. L. By A. L. they mean in the year of Light, as the Christians by A.D. mean in the year of our Lord. But A. L. like V. L. refers to the same chronological era, that is, to the supposed time of the Creation.

In the chapter on the Christian religion, I have shown that the cosmogony, that is the account of the Creation with which the book of Genesis opens, has been taken and mutilated from the Zend-Avesta of Zoroaster, and was fixed as a preface to the Bible after the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon, and that which it is used, and we are not to suppose the Freemasons, among whom are many very learned and scientific men, to be such idiots as to make use of astronomical signs without some astronomical purpose.

But I was much disappointed in my expectation from Lalande. In speaking of the origin of Masonry, he says, the origin of Masonry, like many others, loses itself in the obscurity of time. When I came to this expression, I supposed Lalande a Mason, and on inquiry found he was. This passing over saved him from the embarrassment which Masons are under respecting the disclosure of their origin, and which they are sworn to conceal.

There is a society of Masons in Dublin who take the name of Druids; these Masons must be supposed to have a reason for taking that name.

I come now to speak of the cause of secrecy used by the Masons.

The natural source of secrecy is fear. When any new religion over-runs a former religion, the professors of the new become the persecutors of the old. We see this in all instances that history brings before us. [As in Constantine's persecution of the Christian Gnostics and Mystics - Ish]

When Hilkiah the priest and Shaphan the scribe, in the reign of King Josiah, found, or pretended to find, the law, called the law of Moses, a thousand years after the time of Moses (and it does not appear from II Kings, xxii, xxiii, that such a law was ever practiced or known before the time of Josiah) he established that law as a national religion, and put all the priests of the sun to death. [So perhaps this is what is meant by: "And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun? But is this event historically attested? - Ish]

When the Christian religion over-ran the Jewish religion, the Jews were the continual subject of persecution in all Christian countries. When the Protestant religion in England over-ran the Roman Catholic religion, it was made death for a Catholic priest to be found in England.

As this has been the case in all the instances we have any knowledge of, we are obliged to admit it with respect to the case in question, and that when the Christian religion over-ran the religion of the Druids in Italy, ancient Gaul, Britain, and Ireland, the Druids became the subject of persecution. [they were actually all killed by Paulinus, the Roman general – Ish]

This would naturally and necessarily oblige such of them as remained attached to their original religion to meet in secret, and under the strongest injunctions of secrecy. Their safety depended upon it. A false brother might expose the lives of many of them to destruction; and from the remains of the religion of the Druids, thus preserved, arose the institution which, to avoid the name of Druid, took that of Mason, and practiced under this new name the rites and ceremonies of Druids.


There is more, if you still have the appetite! :lol:
http://www.deism.com/paine_essay_masonry_1.htm

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:46 am
by Ishtar
A small further point: The mason is a builder, and this could be where the 'carpenter' motif comes from. That Joseph was a 'carpenter' and taught his son Jesus to be a 'carpenter' could all be an allegory for a Gnostic initiation of the elder to the junior.

I'm wondering what the Greek word for 'carpenter' is and whether it also means 'builder'? Does anyone know?

So we know where the name Joseph comes from - all their mythological figures were varations of the name of Joshua/Yehoshua/Joseph.

Apparently Mary comes from Isis's name of Isis-Mari, but I haven't yet been able to corroborate that. After my Q faux pas, I'd need to see it in something like the Pyramid Texts to believe it.

EDIT ADDED LATER:

http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=6
"In the Gospels, Jesus is called a tekton, a Greek word that meant not merely a carpenter skilled in making cabinets or furniture but a designer, construction engineer, or architect. A tekton could build a house, construct a bridge, or design a temple." (Starbird, 2003, p. 53)
Actually, although it is a Literalist site, the above link added this further thought:
t is highly unlikely that Jesus was a carpenter. If we examine the 48 parables that occur in the Gospels, not a single one draws upon the experiences of a carpenter. Three of them refer to buildings (e.g., house divided, foolish builder, unfinished tower), and these may offer support for the idea that Jesus’ father was a builder, not a carpenter. [2] ...

It's also possible that Jesus and his family belonged to a group known as The Sleb, a still existing band of Bedouins, found mostlyin Syria, whose ancestry and customs include not only the Essenes but claim to go all the way back to Cain. This would explain the propensity to travel, which Robert Eisler (1931) has argued (in The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist), claiming that Jesus’ family plied their trade in the timeless manner of the Sleb. Interestingly, the Sleb were known to be accomplished in carpentry, masonry, building and a whole host of skills, and they fit well within the definitions of tekton, the name used to describe Joseph’s occupation. They were also known to be healers (Sinclair, 1952).
Obviously, Jesus never lived and was thus not an Essene. But it's interesting that the Sleb might be another term for the Essenes who probably weren't that great as builders, as the above writer seems to think, but that they had building terms scattered through their allegorical literature.

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:42 am
by seeker
Zoroaster doesn't talk about astrology but the magi were into it pretty heavy.

I'd be careful of any study that predates the twentieth century. There were a lot of speculative works about religion that followed no real scientific method and can be quite misleading.

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:10 am
by Ishtar
Thanks Seeker.

I would normally agree wholeheartedly. Acharya S relies on a lot of turn of the 19/20th century writers that could have really benefited from what we know today.

But where, I think, that Thomas Paine (on this subject anyway), is different is on three counts:

Firstly is that he was in one the highest grades of initates in Freemasonry, a Master Mason, and in such a capacity, would have had the secret history passed on to him. So I am certain that this is the lore that had been handed down to him, fwiw.

Secondly, it ties in with what we know about the Essenes and the Theraputae - he just has a bit more detail. That whole thing about Jesus being the corner stone that the builders rejected only makes sense through a masonic lens. It also makes some sense of the symbolism contained with the story of Solomon's temple.

But thirdly, it must have been incredibly risky for Paine to have published this at the time that he did, because, by saying that Christianity came from these earlier traditions, he is all but denying Jesus Christ ever lived. We tend to forget in these enlightened times when we can say what we like on this subject that it wasn't always such a laissez-faire environment, and although the 18th century has been called the Age of Reason, the church was still very powerful and as ever, not that reasonable! :)

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:43 am
by Minimalist
Ishtar wrote:I feel that it would be good to get a new persepctive on what we're discussing - to approach it from another angle, and to look at the question: Whatever became of the Essenes/Theraputae?
Of course it is impossible to say but this essay from Ken HUmphreys gives an idea of what happened a few centuries later.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/tribes.html
Once a warrior king embraced 'Christianity' – an adoption of form and formality with little or no regard to content – the warrior aristocracy followed its king. Thus, for example, when Clovis accepted Christ as his new god, he compelled 3000 of his retainers to follow him into the baptismal font.

Among the common tribesmen religious allegiance was not an issue of conscience. This was not an age of individual opinion or preference. When the tribal leadership adopted a new god the tribe followed suit. Not to have done so would have been tantamount to rebellion. When Charlemagne insisted on baptism as the sign of submission, he punished with appalling barbarity any resistance, as when, in cold blood, he beheaded, in a single day, 4500 Saxons at Verden, in 782 AD.

Having adopted Christ as their new god, the warrior aristocracies forced the new faith on their peoples.
Contrast the story above with the mawkish bullshit that xtianity puts forward as its means of spreading and I suspect that the former is true and the latter is mere propaganda.

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:17 am
by Minimalist
I like the authors who equate the Masons with the remnants of the Knights Templar. Graham Hancock did a bit on that as did a couple of others whose names escape me at the moment.

I can't recall the specifics as I read the book ages ago (The Sign and the Seal) but I do recall a photo of a Templar Cross carved into the ceiling of an Ethiopian church that had been carved into a rock.

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:38 am
by Ishtar
Yeah Min, I'm going to look at the Knights Templars next. But again, there's a lot of romance around them so it'll be a case of picking our way carefully.

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:59 am
by Minimalist
Again, I'm just going by memory here...which is dangerous at my age because I gave the book to a friend...but the Templars seem to end right at the time that the Masons begin.

Coincidence? Maybe. Might even be true but that seems doubtful, also.


The other book was The Templar Revelation by Picknett and Price. There were some leaps of logic in that one, too, but one thing they did say was that earlier books, including Hancock's and Holy Blood Holy Grail were based on the assumption that christian mythology was true. They then ask, "what if it isn't?" Then they go on to assume that the Templars and therefore the Masons gained knowledge of geometry from Solomon's Temple which recent archaeology has demonstrated did not exist, either....so where does that leave Picknett and Price?

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 am
by seeker
That's why I dread discussions that turn to the masons or Knight Templar. There is so much speculation that its real hard to separate BS from truth.

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:17 am
by Minimalist
They have that in common with xtianity then.

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:03 pm
by kbs2244
Min:
I think you are pretty much right on the transition from the Knights to Masons timing.
And the idea of a whole lot of similarly in the core “beliefs and secrets.”
From what I remember it had to do with their leaving France for Scotland, the name change from St Clair to Sinclair, and such.

Ish:
I will be fun to see what you come up with if you dive into the Knights.
They are a good mix of history (real and re-written) and fable.
The latest book I have read about them, written since the Da Vinci Code, is by long time investigators Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince called “The Sion Revelation”.
One important thing they point out is just how “French” the whole current thing is.
(But the, of course, the pregnant Mary Magdalene settled on the south cost of France.)

BTW Min:
I just finished “Misquoting Jesus”
I came to the opposite conclusion.
Instead of weakening my faith in the NT, it encourages me that we are finding the mistakes, miss-translations, etc.
I do believe the concept of “increasing light” as time passes, and consider this an example.
If we know what the old mistakes were, we can correct them.
My beliefs are not “Written in stone.”
I am willing to, with enough evidence, change them.

Ish:
That brings me back to you.
Though not on a doctrinal point.
I will need to dig to find it, but I once read that calling Jesus a carpenter was a possible case of miss translation. (Willful or not.)
The Greek word used may have meant “stonecutter” or “builder.”
The commonly accepted equivalent Hebrew word does.
That kind background, instead of as a woodworker in a land of little wood, would make more sense in the case of some of his stories and parables.
Of course that would tie in with your Mason investigation.