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Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:31 pm
by Katherine Reece
Minimalist wrote:I actually had never heard of the Egyptian pyramids using mortar before the comments attributed to Barakat. IF I were interested enough I'd go looking around to confirm that.
The Egyptians used gypsum mortar ... it was what was used by Mark Lehner to date the GP by C14 (charcoal bits in the mortar you see).

Kat

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:24 pm
by Beagle
I did find that picture after all. Ciko sent it to us. I can't find an attribution by Os, and I have to work real hard to find a similarity with the one Doug posted.


I'm outta here. 8)

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:28 pm
by Katherine Reece
Tesselated pavement can look a variety of ways... I'll try to find more images for you tomorrow.

I too have things to do this evening ... Goodnight.

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:53 pm
by Fortuneteller
8 May 2006, 15:30 (GMT+2:00) : Tuzla (FENA). Professors from the Faculty of Mining and Geology at the University of Tuzla, acting members of the Geological explorations team that did geological studies of the Visocica hill near Visoko (the locality of an alleged Bosnian pyramid), presented today at a press conference in Tuzla the final results of their research completed at the request by the Foundation "Arheološki park Bosanska piramida sunca" Visoko. The team leader Professor Dr. Sejfudin Vrabac said that they have concluded that Visocica hill is a natural geological formation, made of classic sediments of layered composition and varying thickness, and that its shape is a consequence of endodynamical and egsodynamical process in post-Miocene era. According to Professor Vrabac who specializes in paleogeology, there are dozens of like morphological formations in the Sarajevo-Zenica mining basin alone. The Geological team report on Visocica, based on the data collected in six drill holes at 3 to 17 m depths, is supported by the Research and Teaching Council of the Faculty of Mining and Geology, as well as the Association of Geologists of Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
I cannot belive this!

A couple of days ago, the full text of the Tuzla geological report was published on the Internet. I am just reading it in Bosnian. Beside their final conclusion that the hill was natural, the team from Tuzla pointed out that Osmanagic did not use the reports of his own geologists while he was writing his “scientific report” about the pyramids. They are basically saying that Osmangich invented anomalies. They are also saying that their findings comply with the findings of Osmanagich’s geologists. However, the final conclusions that Osmanagich made from the geologiocal findings contained “anomalies” invented by Osmanagich.

I cannot believe this! So far, Osmanagich was saying that he was responsible for logistics and organization only. Now, the geologists from Tuzla are saying that Osmanagich “edited” even the geological reports provided by his own experts.

Does somebody have an English translation of the Tuzla report? Am I missing something? Am I doing something wrong? Please advise! Thank you!

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:59 pm
by Fortuneteller
A little correction. I belive the report from Tuzla, but I simply cannot believe that somebody would "edit" a scientific report in order to prove his/her hypothesis. At least nobody normal would do that.

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:45 pm
by Yamemaru
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JigXhEZRuE

sorry people this is no pyramid, I just found this video and my friend translated it and told me the people are laughing their asses off and calling this a joke. Sadly at the end even the kid isnt fooled......

So not even the natives bealive in this hoax that Sam has come up with. I them to continue to look at it though.

P.S. The Camera Man is out of shape.

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:05 pm
by Katherine Reece
Fortuneteller wrote:
A couple of days ago, the full text of the Tuzla geological report was published on the Internet.
Can you provide a link? I know someone who could translate it for me.

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:07 pm
by Paul H.
Ciko wrote:
Why should barakat lie if this is not a man made?????????????????
why should he emerass himself ??????????????????????
Nobody is lying here. Judging from his inablity to undertand the difference between jointed bedrock and man-made blocks and other errors, which would get a undergraduate student and "F" in in a beginning level field geology course, he just does not understand anything about what he is talking about despite having a degree in geology. However, as Young Earth creationists, who have geologic degrees, like Dr. Steven Autin, Dr. Snelling, and others demonstrate, having a degree in geology fails to guarantee that a person actually understands anything about geology.

The so-called "mortar" is quite likely is some sort of fine-grained calcite in the form of travertine or some other carbonate, which prescipitated from groundwater in the joints / cracks between rocks. The local conglomerates, and presumably the sandstones, are full of limestone and dolomite fragments eroded from the adjacent mountains; washed into Miocene lakes; and deposited to form the sedimentary strata composing the pseudopyramids (Hrvatoric 2000). Groundwater dissolved calcium from these fragments and carried it along in solution. Later, the calcium in solution precipitated out along the sides of and within the joints through which groundwater was flowing. As the calcium precipitated out as a limey crust or fill within the joints between rocks, sand, silt, and clay would be incorporated into it to create a carbonate crust on the blocks or crack filling that looks like mortar.

References Cited:

Hrvatoric, H. 2000, Postorogenic intramountain basin. In Pancardi
2000: Pannonian Basin, Carpathian and Dinaride System, Geological
Meeting on Dynamic of the Ongoing Orogeny, D. Balen and others,
eds., pp. 74-75, Croatian Geological Society and University of
Zagreb, Zagreb, Croatia.

Best Regards,

Paul H.

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:19 pm
by Yamemaru
if the people in bosnia found out that this guy is a hoaxer they will kill him.

I can see it already

The Bosnians found out that this is a Hoax, they will kill the man and then put his grave inside the so called pyramid.

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:23 pm
by Katherine Reece
Fortuneteller wrote:A little correction. I belive the report from Tuzla, but I simply cannot believe that somebody would "edit" a scientific report in order to prove his/her hypothesis. At least nobody normal would do that.
I went looking on my own website for where the person who I said could translate this posted most recently ... he said the same thing you did about the full report ...

See here:
http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?1,40 ... msg-404177

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:34 pm
by Yamemaru
do you guys think hes gona have fun filling up all those holes?

that can't be very fun!

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:56 pm
by Fortuneteller
Can you provide a link? I know someone who could translate it for me.
Katherine, you can try to download the file that contains the Tuzla report:

http://rapidshare.de/files/22255887/Output.pdf.html

If you experience any difficulties please let me know. It is getting late, but I’ll read the report one more time sometime tomorrow. It would be beneficial for this discussion that we can read the whole document. Very interesting reading! Thank you!

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:16 pm
by Fortuneteller
Katherine, I will work on the Tuzla report tomorrow. I might try to translate a couple of interesting statements for you. Please note that I am not a geologist. Let me think if I can find somebody to translate the document.

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:54 pm
by Paul H.
Katherine Reece wrote:Tesselated pavement can look a variety of ways... I'll try to find more images for you tomorrow.
Actually, it is quite common for jointed bedrock to be mistaken for man-made blocks. A person need only look through the Internet at various pseudoarchaeological sites that are enshined in web pages. Such pseudoarchaeological sites include the "Rockwalls" of Rockwall, Texas; the "tiled pavement" of Battlement Mesa in western Colorado; the "Phoenician Furnaces" of Oklahoma; and so forth. Also, a person can find people questioning the natural origin of the "carpet rocks" of Petit Jean State Park in Arkansas and the whaffle rock of West Virginia.

This confusion largely comes from a mistaken assumption that nartural processes cannot produce complex, sometimes linear fracture patterns called "orthogonal' (rectangular) jointing by geologists. It is a demonstrated fact, understood by geologists, who are familiar with basic principle of geology; know what is written in the literature; and seen innumerable outcrops as part of their field studies, is that when stressed in right way, layer of rocks can break along reasonably straight lines as to naturally create rectangular blocks that have a superficial similarity to man-made bricks or blocks.

As illustrated by Katherine, my favorite example of nearly orthogonal jointed bedrock is the "Tasmanian Tesselated Pavement". The systematic and pseudo-artificial nature of the jointing exhibited by the Tasmanian tessellated pavement can be seen because wave action has cleaned the thick layer of soil, which normally hides such jointing where it occurs in bedrock.

Some other pictures of tessellated pavement can be found at:

1. "Tesselated pavement, Tasmans peninsula > Natural pavement, Tasmans peninsular [sic]" at:

http://images.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/F ... 1126183516

2. Tesselated Pavement, Tamsmania at

http://www.australienbilder.de/serien/s ... -tas21.htm and http://www.australienbilder.de/serien/bilder/tas21.jpg

3. Eaglehawk Neck tesselated pavements: collection of postcards #1 at:

http://images.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/F ... -125142836

and

http://images.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/t ... 514283.jpg

4. Eaglehawk Neck tesselated pavements: collection of postcards #2 at:

http://images.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/F ... -125142885

In this postcard, If a person looks close enough, they find that the light, dark, and light areas within this postcard are three **separate** beds of orthogonally jointed bedrock lying on top of each other. In this outcrop, there are three layers of jointed bedrock **lying on top of each other**. Thus, if multiple layers of lithified sedimentary rock are lying on top of each other, it is possible to have multiple layers of jointed bedrock on top of each other that provide the illusion of a man-made platform composed of multiple tiers of stone blocks. Therefore, the presence of a layer of stone "blocks" lying on top of another layer of stones "blocks" fails as evidence of them being man-made.

5. Tesselated Pavement by Mike Lowe at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikelowe/5 ... et-134851/

In the western United States, were bedrock is exposed at the surface without a layer of loose soil covering it and hiding the jointing in it, spectacular example of orthogonal / rectangular jointing cover acre after acre of the surface of Oil Mountian in Natrona County, Wyoming like a huge megalithic man-made plaza.

1. "Unsaturated Cross-Fold Fractures" at:

http://www.pe.utexas.edu/~jolson/utig-t ... age014.jpg

2. "Saturated Strike Joints" at:

http://www.pe.utexas.edu/~jolson/utig-t ... age011.jpg

These figure are from "Spatial organization of natural fractures: A geomechanics approach" by Jon Olson, University of Texas at Austin at:

http://www.pe.utexas.edu/~jolson/utig-t ... cument.htm

How pseudo-manmade orthogonal jointing is created is discussed in:

Hennings, Peter H., Olson, Jon E., and Thompson, Laird B., 2000,
Combining outcrop and three-dimensional structural modeling to
characterize fractured reservoirs: an example from Wyoming.
American Association of Petroleum Geologists Bulletin. vol. 84,
pp. 830-849.

Additional examples of rectangular blocks created by orthogonal jointing in sandstone can be seen at

http://www.pe.utexas.edu/~jolson/cedar-mesa.JPEG and http://www.pe.utexas.edu/~jolson/nat.frac.html

A quite revealing example of orthogonal jointing can be seen in figure 1 of:

Bai, T., Maerten, L., Gross, M. R., and Aydin, A., 2002, Orthogonal
cross joints: Do they imply a regional stress rotation?: Journal of
Structural Geology. vol. 24, pp. 77-88.

The PDF version of this article can be downloaded from:

http://pangea.stanford.edu/research/geo ... G_2002.pdf

Figure 1 pf BAi et al. (2002) illustrates three examples of orthogonal jointing. Figure 1a shows Monterey Formation along the Santa Barbara coastline, California, which resembles the so-called bricks comprising the rockwalls of Rockwall, Texas. Figure 1b illustrates a jointed porcellanite bed of the Monterey Formation exhibiting Liesigang banding within rectangular blocks, which resemble the iron oxide banding within blocks composing the alleged "Phoenician Furnace" reported from Oklahoma. The sketch in Figure 3c of Joint patterns from Nash Point, Bristol Channel, United Kingdom, shows a jointed bed that looks remarkably like a man-made floor. This paper also discusses how such orthogonal (rectangular) joints are created.

Other examples of orthogonal jointing creating jointed layers of bedrock, which bare a resemblance to the jointed bedrock being excavated at a number of places on the Bosnian pseudopyramids, are illustrated in:

Shahabpour, J., 1998, Liesegang blocks from sandstone beds
of the Hojedk Formation, Kerman, Iran. Geomorphology. vol. 22,
no. 1, pp. 93-106.

This publications also illustrates Liesegang banding (rings), a very common and well-known natural feature, which Sam Osmanagic and his so-called experts have naively misidentified as man-made "decorations".

Another case, where jointed bedrock has been misidentified as a prehistoric wall
is the Kaimanawa wall of New Zealand as noted in:

Corliss, William R., 1997, Cracks In The Kaimanawa-wall Story?
Science Frontiers. No. 110.

This article can be found at:

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf110/sf110p02.htm

The author of the Science Frontiers article stated:

"We have personally seen beach-rock deposits
so regularly jointed that they seem man-made."

Photos of the Kaimanawa Wall can be found at;

http://www.mysteriousnewzealand.co.nz/p ... hp?album=5

The "Mysterious Places - The Kaimanawa Wall" web page, whose URL is given above, shows how alternative archaeologists have problems with comprehending some rather basic
geologic concepts. One silly mistake is that they apparently believe that rhyolite and ignimbrite are mutually exclusives types of igneous rocks. The fact of the matter they are not because the author(s) of the web do not seem to understand that "rhyolite" refers to the composition of the rock. On the other hand, "ignimbrite" refers to the origin of the rock. Magma of ryholitic composition erupted as pyroclastic ("ash") flows form ignimbrites. It is possible, in fact quite common, for ignimbrites to be rhyolites. Rhyolitic ignimbrites,
i.e. the Lower Tikorangi and Taupo ignimbrites, are quite common in New Zealand. Ignimbrites of other composition are also found in New Zealand.

Finally, how badly people can confuse naturally jointed bedrock with manmade features is illustrated by:

Ancient floor a work of nature, not nurture (Colorado) By Gary
Harmon, Monday, August 15, 2005, The Daily Sentinel at;

http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/content/ ... l_WWW.html

This newspaper article discusses a layer of jointed bedrock, which was misidentified as an manmade "tiled floor" by a group of "experts" in 1937. About it, they concluded that there was "not the slightest doubt but that the work is of some prehistoric civilization" although an " Egyptologist" concluded that it was natural. Later investigation of this alleged "tiled floor" by the "Western Investigations Team" from Museum of Western Colorado and Mesa State College proved that this so-called "tile floor" was natural in origin.


Best Regards,

Paul H.

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:27 pm
by Yamemaru
So basically

If this is a pyramid its safe to say that im bruce lee?