Mesoamerican Archaeology

[Beagle]

This is Chichen Itza. This is but one of many mesoamerican towns and pyramids that are oriented to the northeast.

[War Arrow]

Hi Monk. Both myself and the Wiki article says "astronomical" and not cardinal orientation. Also, spanning a long time, from Caral to Teotihuacan, we see these cities and pyramids aligned to the northeast, or to Venus. Venus worship and and it's use in the Mayan calender is not a theory as far as I know. I'll look that up but I thought that was common knowledge for many years.

Common knowledge indeed, and further to which, Ehecatl (by whichever name) the Wind God is specifically identified with Venus and aforementioned circular pyramids, for whatever that may be worth. Certain pyramids at least were orientated to the cardinal directions, notably the Templo Mayer at Tenochtitlan (amongst other Mexica structures) which faced west, with it's southern side dedicated to Huitzilopochtli, and the northern to Tlaloc. Fair point about the planting I suppose but I'm not trying to suggest the calendar was developed purely by farmers (so apologies if that's what I appeared to be saying) but as part of the evolution of developing culture in expanding groups of settled people who would also have used it for ceremonial purposes (as pointed out) and administration of taxes. After all, it was the desire to get Easter right which drove out the Julian calendar in favour of the Gregorian (re the ceremonial). The Mesoamerican calendar expressly aknowledges times demarcated as propitous for sowing and harvesting and so on in the festival cycle of eighteen veintena 'months' which makes sense in terms of coordinating a large and complex society (as opposed to smaller autonomous agricultural communities) so I wouldn't say the idea of calendrically orchestrated agriculture is difficult to accept.
Anyway, I'm beginning to forget what the original point was here. Mine was that percieved patterns in global culture tend to be there purely because it's humans producing the things that make up those patterns. If you believe otherwise then that's a beautiful thing, and such questions certainly should be asked. Nevertheless, without anything more than circumstantial evidence (ie - that which is largely, or even wholly interpretative, or otherwise as yet inconclusive) the debate continues to go round in circles. I don't know - I just don't find this stuff engaging - I find the things for which there is a vast surplus of evidence (and which can therefore be more thoroughly investigated) more to my tastes.

[Forum Monk]

Mine was that percieved patterns in global culture tend to be there purely because it's humans producing the things that make up those patterns. If you believe otherwise then that's a beautiful thing, and such questions certainly should be asked. Nevertheless, without anything more than circumstantial evidence (ie - that which is largely, or even wholly interpretative, or otherwise as yet inconclusive) the debate continues to go round in circles. I don't know - I just don't find this stuff engaging - I find the things for which there is a vast surplus of evidence (and which can therefore be more thoroughly investigated) more to my tastes.

Well said. There are civil and ceremeonial calendars and so tracking months, days and years may have had some other practical purpose related to civil or religious administration or shall we say, "control" of the general masses.

I think in general, people are attracted to rhythmic patterns and cycles, especially when they are occurring on a cosmic scale. It connects to those very basic cycles such as heart-beats, breathing and women's fertility and so connects on a very primitive, autonomic level and so humans demarcate any cycle which connects to the cycle of life and death.

[War Arrow]

Mine was that percieved patterns in global culture tend to be there purely because it's humans producing the things that make up those patterns. If you believe otherwise then that's a beautiful thing, and such questions certainly should be asked. Nevertheless, without anything more than circumstantial evidence (ie - that which is largely, or even wholly interpretative, or otherwise as yet inconclusive) the debate continues to go round in circles. I don't know - I just don't find this stuff engaging - I find the things for which there is a vast surplus of evidence (and which can therefore be more thoroughly investigated) more to my tastes.

Well said. There are civil and ceremeonial calendars and so tracking months, days and years may have had some other practical purpose related to civil or religious administration or shall we say, "control" of the general masses.

I think in general, people are attracted to rhythmic patterns and cycles, especially when they are occurring on a cosmic scale. It connects to those very basic cycles such as heart-beats, breathing and women's fertility and so connects on a very primitive, autonomic level and so humans demarcate any cycle which connects to the cycle of life and death.

Whew. Thank you, FM. I was starting to feel like I'd wandered into the wrong bit of south central LA wearing big red shoes.

[kbs2244]

I guess my point was that the real world doesn’t always match the ceremonial.
We can have a Sun timed spring planting party before, during, or after we have actually doing the planting.

[War Arrow]

I guess my point was that the real world doesn’t always match the ceremonial.
We can have a Sun timed spring planting party before, during, or after we have actually doing the planting.

True. Sorry if I appeared argumentative. I'm reading a lot of synapse-meltingly mathematical material to do with calendars at the moment, and after two weeks in hot sun I think it's starting to get to me.

[kbs2244]

No need to apoligize, we are here to argue. Just don't bring knives or guns.

But, now that it has occurred to me, are the square base pyramid building cultures closer to the Equator then otherwise?
If so, why?
W R, you seem t pretty well acquainted with the Central America area.
But has is a relativity late history compared to the Mesopotamia, Egyptian, and North France/Britain Isles sites.
If we do have cone shaped monumental tombs there, instead of square based pyramids, could it be because of “dilution” from higher latitudes?

If you haven’t guessed, I do not subscribe to the concept the oceans are barriers. I view them as much as roads as the end of the road.
One mans fear is another mans opportunity.

[Beagle]

I would like to see evidence of any ancient pyramid that had a triangular base. I don't think there was one.

[War Arrow]

No need to apoligize, we are here to argue. Just don't bring knives or guns.

But, now that it has occurred to me, are the square base pyramid building cultures closer to the Equator then otherwise?
If so, why?
W R, you seem t pretty well acquainted with the Central America area.
But has is a relativity late history compared to the Mesopotamia, Egyptian, and North France/Britain Isles sites.
If we do have cone shaped monumental tombs there, instead of square based pyramids, could it be because of “dilution” from higher latitudes?

If you haven’t guessed, I do not subscribe to the concept the oceans are barriers. I view them as much as roads as the end of the road.
One mans fear is another mans opportunity.

I'm well acquainted with you know where, but I have to admit my knowledge gets pretty generalised once outside that area. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it does seem that the more architecturally impressive cultures (and by extension, I'd tentatively suggest more developed) seem to have arisen in warm to temperate zones that if not exactly on the equator are at least nearish - at least in the fertile zones. Why? Who knows, but I'm guessing warmer climates are just more conducive to city building and cultural development if folks aren't having to fight the elements 24 hours a day - or at least a more complicated version of that tentative statement. At least that's why I can't see my own ancestors developing anything that's yet impressed me so much (I know stone henge is a marvel but it still looks like a big pile of rocks to me). I'm afraid (as is probably obvious) I'm just not convinced by diffusion theories, though for the record I certainly take your point about oceans perhaps not being the barriers they were once thought to be. If ancient seacrossings were proven to have happened, I'd be surprised, but I'd be a lot more surprised if it was somehow proven that not one ancient seacrossing had ever occured (which for starters would make it very difficult, I believe, to explain the more distant polynesian islands and aboriginal australian DNA (I think) turning up in South America). I think the degree of influence a group of ancient sailors might have had on the opposite shore and how frequent such crossings would have been is debatable, but that's just as I see it thus far.
Triangular based pyramids - I've never heard of any, and that's quite interesting in itself. If there are none, why not?
By the way, there's another big circular pyramid at Cuicuilco in Mexico City. I've made three attempts to visit it but thus far I still can't find the bugger. The Mexican Zona Archeologica street signs just seem to lead to distinctly non-pyramidal shopping malls and parks in that part of the city. Very frustrating. I've seen photos of the bloody thing so I'm sure it exists.

[Rokcet Scientist]

This is Chichen Itza. This is but one of many mesoamerican towns and pyramids that are oriented to the northeast.

Beg your pardon, Beagle, but according to Google Earth Chichen Itza is oriented west-north-west . . .

[War Arrow]

My copy of George Kubler gives Chichen Itza a more or less identical orientation to that posted by Beagle.

[Beagle]

I probably couldn't have picked a worse example. Chichen Itza is a city based on astronomy, and nearly everything in it has an astronomical or calendrical basis. For instance, the large pyramid there has 91 steps on each of it's four sides, plus a common step on top, equalling 365. I'm sure everyone knows that but it just illustrates how astronomically complex the city is.

I was looking for an orientation to Venus, which that pyramid has, but it's also oriented to the rising and setting sun. I think it has a northeast orientation, but that may be in the eye of the beholder. I'll get a reference for Teotihuacan, which is more ancient and is the classic mesoamerican city , at least to me.

[Beagle]

I have some neat pictures of Teotihuacan, but this image has a compass marker on it.



And this looks more like NNE to me. It's wherever the hell Venus is on a certain day. I'm sure War Arrow would know better than I.

The point though, is that mesoamerican structures are usually oriented to something of significance, rather than being built haphazardly. Their astronomical knowledge was easily on a par with the ancient Egyptians, and their calendar was more accurate than our own today.

[Forum Monk]

Well, Venus is close to the sun, so it rises and sets very near the ecliptic. (i.e. the same rise and set path of the sun more or less).

[Forum Monk]

Solar alignments will be more or less eastwardly. On the spring equinox the sun will rise due east as seen from any points on earth. Since the earth is tilted 23.5 degrees, it will rise 23.5 further north on the summer solstice and 23.5 further south (from due east) on the winter solstice. Depending on the latitude of the observer, however, this 23.5 degree can appear greater due the apprarent angle of the ecliptic with respect to the observer. In any case, for lower to mid-latitude cultures, this apparent greater offset from due east (plus/minus 23.5*) will not be huge. Bottom line: solar aligned complexes will usually be less than 30* north of east or 30* south of east.

Lunar alignments will exceed these limits, since the moon is tilted 5* with respect to the ecliptic, its extreme northern rising point and southern rising points will be a minium of 5* wider than the sun's corresponding points.

If the alignment of the structure is nearly north (or south), some other target other than moon or sun was used for reference.

If this is unclear, I will attempt to explain it better by PM.