What's the difference between a handaxe and a Folsom point?

[Charlie Hatchett]

The trouble with the many thousands of tons of copper mined in NA in early times is that it doesn't seem to been used in NA, and certainly not for bronze.

The Old Copper Culture utilized the copper they mined:

N.A. Copper age:

http://www.uwfox.uwc.edu/academics/dept ... opper.html

http://www.copperculture.homestead.com/

http://www.uwlax.edu/MVAC/PreEuropeanPe ... lture.html

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/ ... opper.html

[Digit]

You might find this of interest Charlie.

http://www.philipcoppens.com/copper.html

It's a hell of a lot of copper ores.

[Charlie Hatchett]

You might find this of interest Charlie.

http://www.philipcoppens.com/copper.html

It's a hell of a lot of copper ores.

The Menomonie Indians of north Wisconsin possess a legend that speaks about the ancient mines. They described the mines as being worked by “light skinned men”, who were able to identify the mines by throwing magical stones on the ground, which made the ores that contained copper ring like a bell.
This practice closely resembles a similar practice that was used in Europe during the Bronze Age. Bronze with a high concentration of tin indeed resonates when a stone is thrown against it. The legend might have confused the start of the process with the result of the process. Even so, S.A. Barnett, the first archaeologist who studied Aztalan, a site near the mines, believed that the miners originated from Europe. His conclusions was largely based on the type of tools that had been used, tools which were not used by the local people.

Yeah, I find that slightly interesting.

[Digit]

To be honest Charlie I'm a heretic. I can see no practical objection to movements of people, nor trade between them, dating back to to the early stone age.
The major objections seem to be in some people believing that HSE and HSN were stupid. As I pointed out to Marduk, when he was arguing that Homo's large brain meant great intelligence, HSN had a larger brain than us!
Either brain size isn't that important or HSN was no dummy.
Late HSE seems to have had suffient gray matter to handle most things, he was around for a long time wasn't he?

[Charlie Hatchett]

To be honest Charlie I'm a heretic. I can see no practical objection to movements of people, nor trade between them, dating back to to the early stone age.
The major objections seem to be in some people believing that HSE and HSN were stupid. As I pointed out to Marduk, when he was arguing that Homo's large brain meant great intelligence, HSN had a larger brain than us!
Either brain size isn't that important or HSN was no dummy.
Late HSE seems to have had suffient gray matter to handle most things, he was around for a long time wasn't he?

You hit the nail on the head, Dig. We folks have just assumed, in the past, that HSN, HE and Archaic HS were less on the ball than we are. We live and learn.

[Rokcet Scientist]

The Menomonie Indians of north Wisconsin possess a legend that speaks about the ancient mines. They described the mines as being worked by “light skinned men”, who were able to identify the mines by throwing magical stones on the ground, which made the ores that contained copper ring like a bell.
This practice closely resembles a similar practice that was used in Europe during the Bronze Age. Bronze with a high concentration of tin indeed resonates when a stone is thrown against it. The legend might have confused the start of the process with the result of the process. Even so, S.A. Barnett, the first archaeologist who studied Aztalan, a site near the mines, believed that the miners originated from Europe. His conclusions was largely based on the type of tools that had been used, tools which were not used by the local people.

Very interesting. Even if 'only' from a cultural anthropological perspective. But I'd love to see all that supported by evidence of course. Which you, as a 'rockhunter', will appreciate.
I have good hopes for DNA.
Whatever the veracity of that theorizing, the implied suppositions certainly dovetail neatly with the Solutrean Walkabout thesis, of which I'm a fan as you know.

[Charlie Hatchett]

The Menomonie Indians of north Wisconsin possess a legend that speaks about the ancient mines. They described the mines as being worked by “light skinned men”, who were able to identify the mines by throwing magical stones on the ground, which made the ores that contained copper ring like a bell.
This practice closely resembles a similar practice that was used in Europe during the Bronze Age. Bronze with a high concentration of tin indeed resonates when a stone is thrown against it. The legend might have confused the start of the process with the result of the process. Even so, S.A. Barnett, the first archaeologist who studied Aztalan, a site near the mines, believed that the miners originated from Europe. His conclusions was largely based on the type of tools that had been used, tools which were not used by the local people.

Very interesting. Even if 'only' from a cultural anthropological perspective. But I'd love to see all that supported by evidence of course. Which you, as a 'rockhunter', will appreciate.
I have good hopes for DNA.
Whatever the veracity of that theorizing, the implied suppositions certainly dovetail neatly with the Solutrean Walkabout thesis, of which I'm a fan as you know.

Well, I'm not even familiar with the author of the article that Dig. provided, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit. One thing that seems relatively certain is copper was being mined and transformed into tools, in NA, at least 6000 B.P., and probably earlier.

Less commonly, it is also applied to American civilizations which already used copper and copper alloys at the time of European conquest. The Old Copper Complex, located in present day Michigan and Wisconsin, is the oldest known site in the new world, and one of the oldest sites in the world, where copper was utilized for tools and other implements. Artefacts from these sites have been dated from 4000 to 1000 BC. [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Age

[Digit]

What particularly interested me Charlie is the report that the mining ceased. Why?
It's use wasn't superceded by iron so trade looks to be a likely scenario.

[Charlie Hatchett]

What particularly interested me Charlie is the report that the mining ceased. Why?
It's use wasn't superceded by iron so trade looks to be a likely scenario.

Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me a bit, Dig. I just haven't had a chance to research the scenario thoroughly. Do you have a few academic refs that you can point me to?

[Digit]

I'll be following it up later Charlie as a possible scenario is that the 'customers' moved onto iron and the 'trade' collapsed.

[Roberto]

http://www.geology.ucdavis.edu/~cowen/~ ... 15CH4.html

Bronze Age History. Interesting time frame consistant with Isle Royle.
It's possible that early European's may have been mining copper and tin
from here. Perhaps they also needed the timber supply. Once iron comes
into production, it surpassed the desire for copper and tin.


Has anybody read this:
http://www.geocities.com/howthesungod/

I just found that under:
http://www.angelfire.com/me/ij/books.html

while doing a Google search for "Bronze Age Smelting Evidence"

Darn the more you look into this, there is a lot of data on
iron ore smelting furnaces being used in Ohio for copper smelting.
Vikingin bog iron smelting furnaces and etc. The list goes on.

[Rokcet Scientist]

he was around for a long time wasn't he?

Yeah, about 5 to 6 times as long as HS has been around. Was HE 5 to 6 times as good as HS?
But then: take insects. Been around 70 times as long as Hominids. So are insects a 70 times more successful evolutionary concept?

[Digit]

You like the akward questions don't you?
Good point though.
It's a bit like the argument I had with Marduk that a big brain might permit us to invent the TV but it's not essential for survival.
Which raises it's own akward question of why the big brain evolved.

[Rokcet Scientist]

You like the akward questions don't you?

Those are the ones we can learn most from.

[Digit]

Very true.