Could Abraham be from the Vedas?

[kbs2244]

Oh come on Min.
The guy was a shepherd living in the desert.
What would he leave behind to be found?
A big thing to him was planting a tree to mark a place.
We are into anthropology here.

[clubs_stink]

Thought I'd jump in here with an interesting look at the origins of this world religion and the purpose behind it. (Enslavement)

The first part of the following movie outlines the religious issues quite well exposing the political motives behind the creation of a "my god is better than your god" type of religion. They made a few mistakes that are corrected on the errors page if they have not already been corrected in the cut.

The movie is in three parts, for this discussion, the first part is most interesting. (Although I found the entire movie well worth the watch.)

*I do NOT recommend that Xians view this....*

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/


also thought I'd throw in

"Jeremiah 8:19-23, "Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion? Is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities? The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved. For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me. Is there no balm in Gilead; is there no physician there? Why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered? Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!"

as by connection google Jesus Christ, balm of gilead.

[Minimalist]

Oh come on Min.
The guy was a shepherd living in the desert.
What would he leave behind to be found?
A big thing to him was planting a tree to mark a place.
We are into anthropology here.

I'll see if I can find you a quote from one of Dever's books. BRB.

[Minimalist]

Oh come on Min.
The guy was a shepherd living in the desert.
What would he leave behind to be found?
A big thing to him was planting a tree to mark a place.
We are into anthropology here.

From William Dever's 2001 book, What Did The Bibilical Writers Know...."

Pages 98 and 99 courtesy of Google Books, which does not allow cutting and pasting but does allow making a screen shot. Last paragraph on 98 and top of 99.





If you want to know what archaeologists are saying you have to read books byarchaeologists. Reading the bible, or works by apologists, does not get one anywhere.

[john]

This means we create too. We create our own gods.

Ishtar -

Spot on.

Critical point being that all "Gods" are internal, not external entities.

Oral history begat

Written history which

Begat secular and religious politics

Which begat economic supremacy

As a tool of political supremacy

Which eventually begat

- I'm leaving out about a zillion begats here -

The world as we know it manipulated by

People taking advantage of an imagined

External deity.

Rather than the internal, individual, state of God or Goddess.

The Shamanic, yes?


Hoka hey


john

[Ishtar]

This means we create too. We create our own gods.

Ishtar -

Spot on.

Critical point being that all "Gods" are internal, not external entities.

Oral history begat

Written history which

Begat secular and religious politics

Which begat economic supremacy

As a tool of political supremacy

Which eventually begat

- I'm leaving out about a zillion begats here -

The world as we know it manipulated by

People taking advantage of an imagined

External deity.

Rather than the internal, individual, state of God or Goddess.

The Shamanic, yes?


Hoka hey


john

Yes.

[Ishtar]

Meanwhile, did we ever decide where Abraham came from?

My view is that it comes (somehow) from the Brahma m. Saraswati story through various means, not of which we can be sure of.

[Ishtar]

Meanwhile, did we ever decide where Abraham came from?

My view is that the Abraham m. Sarah story comes (somehow) from the Brahma m. Saraswati story through various possible routes, none of which we can be sure of.

Deuteronomy says that Abraham was a "wandering Aramean". The eariest attestations of the Arameans is in Syria and northern Mesopotamia during the 12th and 13th centuries BC. The Vedic god-worshipping Mitannis are known to have ruled that area for around 300 years from 1600 BC.

I'd say that's as close as dammit!

[kbs2244]

My point about Abraham and archeology is that archeology looks for physical things. Things you can dig up, touch, feel, read, photo, analyze.

By his reported style of life Abraham is not very likely to have left behind anything with these qualities that could be attributed to him.

He may have been a rich wander, but he was still a wander. Everything he owned, except maybe his wife’s jewelry, would eventually die or rot.

There would not be anything for an archeologist to find. Thus his existence or lack of existence is not a valid point of discussion for an archeologist to comment on.

He could still be a historical figure without being an archeology proven one.

I have read Dever’s book. Dever is a good archeologist, but these comments show his prejudices that reach beyond the limits of his field. He is not a historian. As I am sure you know, historians often have to work with more nebulous things, and he is clearly uncomfortable about that.

And his views are not without some notable criticism from both within and without archeology.

[Minimalist]

I have read Dever’s book. Dever is a good archeologist, but these comments show his prejudices that reach beyond the limits of his field. He is not a historian. As I am sure you know, historians often have to work with more nebulous things, and he is clearly uncomfortable about that.

Dever also started out life as a preacher, himself. He knows both sides of the coin.

When he speaks of giving up on the patriarchs he isn't talking about one guy with a flock of sheep. He is talking about the entire historical context of the age as described. It does not exist in any recognizable form anywhere in history.

One has to be careful about divinity students masquerading as archaeologists. There has historically been a lot of that in the Middle East and it has ended up being to the detriment of the bible in the long run. Had early archaeologists, funded by religious institutions, not been so eager to "prove" the bible, its fall from the pedestal would not have been so damaging.

The secularists did not set the bar too high. The theists did that to themselves.

[kbs2244]

Yes, I was aware of his prior life before he went to the “Dark Side.” But didn’t someone, somewhere, warn about the “Enthusiasm of the Convert?”

Dever’s argument against the entire “Age of the Patriarchs “ is the same as the one against Abraham.

And it runs into the same problem. All the “Patriarchs” shared the same nomadic, sheep herder, life style as Abraham.

They would have left the same, unable to be tracked by Archaeology, trail.

Then he says no one can find evidence of the Exodus. But if you have possibly 6 million people wandering around in a desert, and they are told that no adult currently living is going to get out alive, what of any value is going to left behind? The kids would be assigned the back of the pack to pick up anything of value. It would be part of their inheritance. Maybe their only inhertiance. I doubt they will ever find anything physical relating to the Exodus.

He says there is no evidence of the Jewish “conquest” of the “Promised Land,” when by the Bibles own account, the Jews stayed in the hills and led a bandit like existence for some time. Under these conditions, I would expect they would pick up and hide anything that would expose their locations.

He is a classic case of the “Lack of evidence” theory.

I am far from being against the archaeology science. That is why I found this board in the first place. But I do think it has to take it’s place in the larger picture.

I enjoy Istar, DB, and Clubs, (and yours, Min.) comments because, even though sometimes minimally archaeology based, in the true sense, they do invite investigation into things I may not have thought of on my own.

We all seem to mix history with archaeology. I think it is a good mix.


(You know, I have to get out my Strunk’s book. That one paragraph was a single 36 word sentence.)

[Ishtar]

I enjoy Istar, DB, and Clubs, (and yours, Min.) comments because, even though sometimes minimally archaeology based ....

I resent that!

[Minimalist]

But if you have possibly 6 million people wandering around in a desert, and they are told that no adult currently living is going to get out alive, what of any value is going to left behind

Camps, campfires, latrines, graves, broken bits of pottery, garbage including animal bones, etc., etc.

I agree they were not likely to leave a sign saying "We Were Here" but real archaeologists are not looking for such a sign, anyway.

(P.S. The 6 million number is flat out ridiculous. If there were 6 million Jews it would have been the Egyptians who were chased out!)

[Digit]

P.S. The 6 million number is flat out ridiculous

And if you were told that you were to spend the rest of your days wandering a desert would you accept it? Egypt would have begun to look very attractive I would have thought.

[Minimalist]

A very good point, Dig. But, of course, these are characters in a play so they do what the author wants them to do.