Neandertal's death, new theory.

[Cognito]

HSS population studies are more developed, but this entire area is fascinating with no easy answer to: Why did the HSS population rapidly expand after 50,000bce while HN remained static? So far, there is no clearcut answer.

The clearcut, one word answer:

BOATS - and all the food that goes with them

Maybe so, but H. erectus also made it to Flores about 800kya plus. Maybe the difference is: they used simple rafts while 50kya boats with sails were first used. It certainly explains rapid dissemination throughout the world, initially along the coasts.

I recently read an interesting comment regarding the establishment of Australia and subsequent explosion of voyaging into the east Pacific at 50kya. Where is the evidence? Tsunamis apparently took care of most traces - living on a low altitude island is eventually hazardous to your health or those of your progeny.

By the way, EP, I finished going through your book for the third time. Due to the abundance of material and references presented it took that many times to absorb its impact. I appreciate the inclusion of so many oral traditions - a must read for anyone who is interested in Paleo America.

[Minimalist]

HSN must have known the layout of the surrounding countryside for miles around and known the weather patterns.

Doubtless but does it really matter? As Beags suggested earlier, HNS would have been following the animals.

If an ice age moved in and the vegetation vanished to the north, the animals would head south (not because it was warmer but because that was where the next plant was)...and so would the humans. The joy of being a hunter/gatherer is that you are not tied to your fields and can follow the game. HNS handled these repeated advances/retreats of the ice just fine until 24,000 ybp. The logical answer is contact with HSS but it just seems that HNS would have had the advantage of knowing the terrain if it was any sort of actual combat scenario. I'm still leaning towards a disease scenario.

[Digit]

Well EPG if you insist on refusing speculation and interpolation let us examine what we know.
We know the size and shape of their skeletons, we know they produced stone tools, we know they could articulate sounds, we know they spent some time in caves, we know they used fire, we know they occasional buried their dead.
And that's about it!

Roy.

[E.P. Grondine]

HSS population studies are more developed, but this entire area is fascinating with no easy answer to: Why did the HSS population rapidly expand after 50,000bce while HN remained static? So far, there is no clearcut answer.

The clearcut, one word answer:

BOATS - and all the food that goes with them

Maybe so, but H. erectus also made it to Flores about 800kya plus. Maybe the difference is: they used simple rafts while 50kya boats with sails were first used. It certainly explains rapid dissemination throughout the world, initially along the coasts.

I recently read an interesting comment regarding the establishment of Australia and subsequent explosion of voyaging into the east Pacific at 50kya. Where is the evidence? Tsunamis apparently took care of most traces - living on a low altitude island is eventually hazardous to your health or those of your progeny.

By the way, EP, I finished going through your book for the third time. Due to the abundance of material and references presented it took that many times to absorb its impact. I appreciate the inclusion of so many oral traditions - a must read for anyone who is interested in Paleo America.

Thanks, Cognito, please be sure to tell your friends - I can really use the sales right now. Since putting the book together gave me a stroke, right now I'm feeling like the book will do quite well right after it's finished killing me.

Despite that, I feel that it will ultimately attain the same stature as Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Tuchmann's Guns of August, and some of Linda Schele's volumes. Anyone who buys a signed first edition copy is making a great investment, posthumously, but please don't pray for an immediate increase in the value of your investment.

I also take a certain pleasure in knowing that wherever you travel, the peoples will live for you again when you are at their sites. Enjoy, and Paselo.

While the Flores materials are under question, I read in Current Archaeology about new and even earlier finds from Taiwan that are firm.
Unfortunately, with this damn stroke I can not repeat them back to you, but that's where to look.

The HSS materials in Australia are firm, and there's only one way HSS could have got there. I can't give you URLs, but you can find them through google. I also posted a bit about the new book on this, but with this damn stroke, it's going to be tough to find that again.

Right about the tsunami - not only do we have the tectonic induced tsunami, but we have those perky impact tsunami as well. The next impact mega-tsunami is likely to kill at least 60 million people or so, unless mankind gets on this problem right fast.

The raft probably came after simple river rafts developed in Asia, but the tech could have appeared anywhere from the East Coast of Africa, through India, to Asia. My guess is Asia, but that's simply a guess; in any case, the spread from that point must have been rapid. The key here is going to be finding well dated marine hunting tools, and the remains of marine meals - I think that sea turtles were key to some degree.

While tools for rafts may not have been specialized, the dugout tools probably were, so that's something else that's going to have to be watched out for.

[Cognito]

Right about the tsunami - not only do we have the tectonic induced tsunami, but we have those perky impact tsunami as well. The next impact mega-tsunami is likely to kill at least 60 million people or so, unless mankind gets on this problem right fast.

Mega-tsunami signatures are difficult to document since the water flattens everything in its path. Unfortunately, the danger presented by impact events was not well-known until a few years ago, and seems remote to most people who are living in the cross hairs.

Our planet's climate has been relatively benign for nearly 12,000 years and it is a miracle that enough time was given for civilisation to flourish before we entered the next severe ice age deep freeze. Must be dumb luck.

[Minimalist]

Multiple HNS?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 075150.htm

The Neanderthals inhabited a vast geographical area extending from Europe to western Asia and the Middle East 30,000 to 100,000 years ago. Now, a group of researchers are questioning whether or not the Neanderthals constituted a homogenous group or separate sub-groups (between which slight differences could be observed).

[Digit]

separate sub-groups (between which slight differences could be observed).

Like exist between Asiatics and Scandinavians do they mean?
If we are to accept the ridiculously low numbers ascribed to their population I would suggest that sub groups were inevitable. Pure Darwinism.

Roy.

[Beagle]

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0005151

Here is the original study, including the abstract. The population size is estimated to have grown to 200,000. Even that seems low. Some are finding fault with this study, but we'll have to see how it shakes out.

I instinctively agree with this paper because it makes sense, but that's not enough in the world of science. I have little doubt that this discussion will be continued.

[Digit]

Interesting article, but there are a lot more assumptions, ie, guesses, than I would wish to see.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Like exist between Asiatics and Scandinavians do they mean?

That's exactly what I thought they meant.

[Digit]

The effort they will go to avoid the R word eh Min?
Hawks has some interesting comments, as always, on this point Min.

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/nea ... rtals.html

Roy.

[Minimalist]

It probably should be avoided since genetically it seems to be inconsequential BUT such designations do serve a general, descriptive, purpose. As previously noted, the Inuit and the Watusi are both HSS and members of different "racial" groups.

Nonetheless, what they are suggesting seems to be exactly that sort of breeding in a restricted gene pool which produced the two groups I named. It makes sense that there would not be a great deal of contact between widely scattered HNS groups and therefore we should not be at all surprised that there would be such "racial" differences developing.

It does not begin to explain, at all, how such claimed HNS traits as "red hair" spread to the newly dominant HSS interlopers.

[Digit]

Code: Select all

It does not begin to explain, at all, how such claimed HNS traits as "red hair" spread to the newly dominant HSS interlopers.[quote]

And there's nothing like ignoring the obvious is there Min. Occam's razor seems to be getting blunt.

Roy.[/quote]

[Minimalist]

Dogma gets in the way, Dig. It is not only a religious problem. Right now, dogma says that HNS and HSS were separate species and anyone who dares question dogma risks being burned at the professional stake.

[Digit]

True I'm afraid to say Min, Das Klub is ruthless in dealing with dissension it seems.

Roy.