Problematic Discoveries

[Tiompan]

Tiompan,

Yes, that's the spot. The island is so small that the coordinates will suffice at this point as the vantage point. I am interested in three dates, but they are approximate, especially the second and third: 539 AD, 1250 AD, and 3500 BC. Are these specific enough? Initially the solstices and equinoxes would be good. I am trying to relate the site to local topography and features if in fact it has any authenticity. The first two dates correspond to possible ocean strikes by comets, and the third is related to the shell mound culture of the southeast coast.

Ok Springhead .
Not that much of a chamge in obliquity and the horizon is pretty flat so not too much difference .

Will get back with some results tomorrow .

[Springhead]

Thanks Tiompan,

I appreciate the time and effort.

[Tiompan]

Springhead ,

No problem .
The azimuths for the solstices 3500BC below .The horizon points may be slightly shorter or longer but this is the best that can be derived from GE and will not impact on the azimuths which have been rounded up to the nearest whole number .

WSSR = 119 horizon = 34.259517 ,-77.752470
WSSS=239 horizon= 34.266614 , -77.771203
SSSR =60 horizon = 34.289717 ,77.722175
SSSS=299 horizon= 34.268739 , -77.771258
The same astro events for 539 AD will differ by about half a degree e.g. 118. 4 instead of 119 . The reason for this is that obliquity changes very slowly e.g. in 3500 BC it was 24.05 today it is 23.45 .

[Springhead]

Hi Lily,

I have emailed a researcher friend to access the writings on that ca.1250 event, and when I get the info I will get back with you. Not having specific reference to the research yet, I qualified my statements. I was reiterating the work of others. Happy V Day!

Tiompan,

Thank you for your time and help. I will plot these lines and look for associations locally. It is interesting how slowly the degree changes happen considering the time span.

In the meantime I need to return to the subject matter in this thread. I think mention of Jack Hranicky's work with multiple Pleistocene sites in Virginia is in order. The sites and artifacts found show many similarities, and it is likely that many more will come to light.

[Tiompan]

Tiompan,

Thank you for your time and help. I will plot these lines and look for associations locally. It is interesting how slowly the degree changes happen considering the time span.

Springhead ,
Yes , obliquity works on 41,000 yr cycle that varies between just over 22 degrees to 24.5 and back .
Whilst we should never consider dating monuments by their possible astro alignments ( the Gt pyramid being a special case ) , it is
worth noting that some of the major monuments built in the neolithic -EBA and aligned on solstices , e.g. Newgrange , Stonehenge , Maes Howe ,
are still "working " today , and it will be a long time before they don't .

[Springhead]

Tiompan,

Is the 41,000 year cycle related to the ca. 40,000 year solar cycle that influences ice age dynamics? I am sorry that when at Maes Howe 28 years ago I did not experience an alignment event though there on the summer solstice. I cannot remember what I was told about the entryway's event alignment. I would love to return there with all the recent discoveries that have occurred. I was lured there initially by family origins on Westray. Now I read that the small carved stone balls from Skara Brae are dead ringers for pottery balls found at Watson's Break complex in Louisiana. That would be an interesting connection to understand! Maybe Farley Mowat was hot on the trail with his 'Far Farfarers' if I remember that book title correctly.

[Tiompan]

Tiompan,

Is the 41,000 year cycle related to the ca. 40,000 year solar cycle that influences ice age dynamics? I am sorry that when at Maes Howe 28 years ago I did not experience an alignment event though there on the summer solstice. I cannot remember what I was told about the entryway's event alignment. I would love to return there with all the recent discoveries that have occurred. I was lured there initially by family origins on Westray. Now I read that the small carved stone balls from Skara Brae are dead ringers for pottery balls found at Watson's Break complex in Louisiana. That would be an interesting connection to understand! Maybe Farley Mowat was hot on the trail with his 'Far Farfarers' if I remember that book title correctly.

Springhead ,

I think I have a much better grasp on the site of putative monument on Spout Run .
The land owners address is freely available on the web , from that and relating it to the Spout Run itself (the site is just to the north of water course ) and the fact that the landowners property is limited to 200 acres provides a small area that also fits into the 205m height .
The important point is that from any of these points Bears Den Rock and even the hill on which it stands is not on the horizon .The actual horizon from the site ,on a bearing towards the rock /hill is only 105 metres distant .The figures are site - Bears Den Rock .alt = 4.81 i.e (205m – 377m at a distance of 1.98Km) ,site to local horizon =6.75 .i.e. 205m -218m at a distance of 105 metres = 7.33 .

There is a spot lower down at a height of 203 m that has the hill in view but not the rocks but this is quite a bit off the solstice having a declination of 21.86 which when considered in days is off by three weeks .

Eagle Rocks are in view from all points ,but as noted earlier , they are a huge target ,they occupy the horizon from 93 degrees from the site to 123 degrees and are meaningless as a marker .

The obliquity cycle is contained within the Milankovich cycles . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles

The Maes Howe alignment is to the winter solstice so you didn't miss anything ,and probably got better weather , although maybe not .
Yes the Ness is proving to be one of the major sites in world archaeology .and some of the stone balls one the most beautiful minor ones .

[Springhead]

Lily,

My ca. 1250 AD date for the tsunami in the SE US was erroneous. The date was 1014 AD. Sorry about the brain fart. There are two articles that address this written by a researcher I have worked with in the past. My computer will not, for some reason, show the complete articles' addresses, so I will give you two search directions. Search Richard Thornton Native American History and go to page 2 of his articles. Look for the article: 'Two Comet Impacts Altered North America's History.' Next, search Richard Thornton National Architecture and Design Examiner. Go to page 3 of the articles, last article, 'Evidence of a Massive Tsunami on South Atlantic Coast.'

Sorry about the wrong initial date.

[Springhead]

Tiompan,

Thanks for the run down on Spout Run. I will try to compare your observations with the text of the Spout Run book to see what discrepancies might exist. I am no archaeoastronomer so please bear with my learning curve climb. Thanks for the Wikipedia link. I will work to absorb the cycle relationships which must have a direct bearing on the peopling, in this case, of North America, perhaps well beyond the last glacial maximum.

I feel better now to not have missed the entrance way astronomical event at Maes Howe. The weather the day I was there and at the Ring of Brodgar was fabulous, but at other sites on other days I got a taste of what Orkney can dish out.

By the way, the Farley Mowat book is 'The Farfarers'. I had one too many fars in there.

[Tiompan]

Springhead ,
Farley was descended fom a Mowat just across the water from from Orkney, in Canisbay .
Lots of Mowats on Orkney .

[Springhead]

Tiompan,

I was unaware of that and it certainly explains his interest in the area. Maybe he was a tenth cousin or something. I have found the Farfarer book and I think I'll read it again.

[Tiompan]

Springhead ,

I’ve been looking at the putative V shaped saddle alignment from Spout Run . Despite not being 100 % assured of the exact position it must be within 50 metres ,which would have little impact on the comments below .
There is a saddle to the SE ( about 250m from the site ) but it doesn’t provide the horizon .The horizon is a higher (551 m ) flat hill behind the saddle that takes up 15 degrees of the horizon ,not a useful marker . If the alignment is taken through the saddle on to the hill then it is a long way from the solstice , the sun would never be seen to rise over that point at nay time as it’s too far south .When seen over that point the sun would be quite high (18 degrees ) even at winter solstice when it won’t get to 28 degrees . All the points that I have made concerning the problems can be easily verified . The point like Bears Den Rock which is not on the horizon can be tested by any time by using a torch . Eagle Rock is simply too wide to be considered a marker , the V shaped saddle with higher hill and azimuth can be checked on the map but you’ll have to wait until the next winter solstice to confirm that the sun is way above the horizon at that azimuth on the solstice.

[Springhead]

Tiompan,

Thanks for the observations on Spout Run. Unfortunately I am presently mired in a health insurance snafu that has sucked this entire week up so far, and I have been unable to get the time to cross reference your work with the text of Jack's book. I may be off the hook after today. Thanks for your interest and analyses/time spent in this site which is producing artifacts similar to some of the finds on the mountain site I have made. I will devote time to this as soon as I am able.

[Springhead]

http://www.examiner.com/article/two-com ... ntic-coast[/url]

Hi Lily,

Here are the links to the two articles I mentioned. I continue to demonstrate my lack of computer skills here, much to my disappointment, but eventually I move ahead, however slowly.

[Springhead]

http://siberiantimes.com/science/casest ... after-all/

This link is to an article in the most recent Archaeologica news. The observed "Venus" figures were reinterpreted to be representations of women, men, and children with lots of detail to include clothing and adornments of various types. I was immediately captured with the similarity in subject matter to the mountain potential artifact discoveries. Not only this, but as seen best in the last image in the article, the micro carving in the figure's back upper thigh and lower buttocks is very exemplary of what I am observing on my finds. I will not enhance the image to make these more visible as the image quality is good enough to make out all the faces of people and animals. The condition of the artifacts in the article may demonstrate a less corrosive environment than the mountain site in Virginia, or less age, or both. The overall composition of the article's subject sculptures is not mirrored in the mountain stones, but their similarities in subject matter are striking with the portrait nature of the representations. The mountain site in Virginia has been producing many hundreds of portrait type stones that depict individuals alone, with mates, with mates and dogs, with larger groups (friends, family, clans?), women with children, and couples with children. These portraits are not stylized but show specific individuals.

I have noted with the Virginia finds the very personal representations of folks and the detailed work showing a wide variety of hats, boots, jewelry, belts, robes, dresses, and pants. The subject matter expands to landscape scenes with night skies showing the moon and stars, mountain scenes, and habitation scenes, all of which have people in the compositions. There are also many hundreds of animal portraits.

The linked article's observations, though of an occupation far away from today's Virginia, suggest a relationship artistically if not in a broader cultural sense to the Virginia mountain site's found occupation. This may suggest movement from Asia to North America. The 20,000 ybp dates from the article might further suggest that North American occupation traditions also traveled back to Asia if dates of greater antiquity in NA could be gained from finds with secure context.