Cognito wrote:W/A will tell you that "runners" were the mail service in the Americas before the introduction of the horse.
True apparently (can't recall source, but probably Fr. Diego Duran's Historia de los Indies de Nueva Espana) - Ahuizotl could allegedly send a message from Tenochtitlan (Mexico City) in the morning which would be recieved in Veracruz on the Gulf Coast by the evening. Usual terms and conditions apply regarding bigging up one's past and general hyperbole.
Anyway. Back to the point, it seems pretty much a fact that neanderthals looked quite different to HSS in appearance and the way they moved, weilded arms (or not as the case may have been), and although there's no evidence (as yet) of hostility between the species, I'd suggest it might be a factor that HSS has a highly developed tendency to take umbrage with anyone or anything that isn't of his or her own exact racial type. Just look at our history. We'll pick fights with anyone we don't like the look of, particularly if we've got some made-up law defining our own superiority to back it up.
I am new on this forum, so forgive me if I repeat something already discussed.
Anyway, have any of you followed Jon Hawks weblog(an anthropologist at the University of Wisconsin)? It seems a reanalysis
of Neanderthal bones gives a pretty good indication of interbreeding between
humans and neanderthals.
Hello Zale and welcome to a fellow Hawks fan. I think Hawks has a great weblog, and I've been reading him for nearly a couple of years now.
It's fun to talk about our favorite Neandertal theory, but as Hawks says -"bring on the alleles". I think we may have to wait for genetics. The whole science is still in it's infancy.
There is every kind of disagreement about HNS everywhere you look. And still, no definitive study.
Beagle wrote:Hello Zale and welcome to a fellow Hawks fan. I think Hawks has a great weblog, and I've been reading him for nearly a couple of years now.
It's fun to talk about our favorite Neandertal theory, but as Hawks says -"bring on the alleles". I think we may have to wait for genetics. The whole science is still in it's infancy.
There is every kind of disagreement about HNS everywhere you look. And still, no definitive study.
Thanks Zale.
Hi fellow Hawks fan!
Thanks for the welcome.
About the "bring on the alleles" comment: Well, he did go recently to Krapina, Croatia, and that site did yield Neandertal DNA. Based on the dropped hints, and the slant of his opinions, I suspect there will be a huge paper out on this matter within half a year, i.e. DNA proof that humans (caucasians) are partly Neandertal.
About the "bring on the alleles" comment: Well, he did go recently to Krapina, Croatia, and that site did yield Neandertal DNA. Based on the dropped hints, and the slant of his opinions, I suspect there will be a huge paper out on this matter within half a year, i.e. DNA proof that humans (caucasians) are partly Neandertal.
Welcome to this site Zale. I don't need proof, I am part Neanderthal!
A thought has occured. Anyone remember a book called (I think) 'Now It Can Be Told' by Oscar Kiss Mearth? As cranky writings go, I seem to remember it being a biggie. The guy's basic ideas were that 1) intelligence can be passed on through cannibalism and 2) Neanderthals interbred with HSS to produce modern humanity, as proven by evil people like Charles Manson who are obviously thowbacks to a less refined mix of the two species. I think Yeti and Bigfoot (Bigfeet? Bigfoots?) figured in there too. It was an entertaining read (of it's kind) although obviously bonkers, not least due to some possibly unsavoury racial views which seemed to be hinted at. I don't think it really has any bearing upon the current thread, but if the DNA tests come back positive, I'll bet there's going to be one or two people crowing 'Ha! Oscar was right.' Is it just me or does that seem a bit worrying?
Neanderthals may have given the modern humans who replaced them a priceless gift -- a gene that helped them develop superior brains, U.S. researchers reported on Tuesday.
A decent guess would be that the gene was present quite a bit longer in Neandertal, I think.
As I've been saying, genetics will catch up, slowly but surely.
"The D alleles may not even change brain size; they may only make the brain a bit more efficient if it indeed affects brain function," Lahn said.
A brain allele mutation at 37Kya that confers positive selection for survival. Now that's interesting. Two different lines coming together to form a superior line ... reads like horse breeding.
Thanks all for the welcome. Antropology is only a hobby (physicist professionally) so please forgive the sure to come occasional ignorances.
About Neandrethals, if interbreeding turns out to be true, several additional issues will be raised:
- The Neandrethals lived for hundredts of thousand of years in Europe, so surely they would
have been quite genetically varied among themselves, i.e. have races. Thus perhaps different parts of the caucasian population have genes from different races of neandrethals.
- I seem to recall that there were genetic hints that the Asians have genes that are older than homo sapies (java man or whatever). This hypothesis will definitely then become scrutinized in more detail.
I seem to recall that there were genetic hints that the Asians have genes that are older than homo sapies (java man or whatever). This hypothesis will definitely then become scrutinized in more detail.
November 9, 2006
Neanderthals in Gene Pool, Study Suggests
By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
Scientists have found new genetic evidence that they say may answer the longstanding question of whether modern humans and Neanderthals interbred when they co-existed thousands of years ago. The answer is: probably yes, though not often.
In research being published online this week by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the scientists reported that matings between Neanderthals and modern humans presumably accounted for the presence of a variant of the gene that regulates brain size.
Bruce T. Lahn of the University of Chicago, the report’s senior author, said the findings demonstrated that such interbreeding with relative species, those on the brink of extinction, contributed to the evolutionary success of modern humans.
Other researchers in evolutionary biology said the new study offered strong support for the long-disputed idea that archaic species like Neanderthals contributed to the modern human gene pool.
Two other reports of DNA studies of possible mixing of human and related genes are expected to be published in the next few weeks.
Both genetic and fossil studies show that anatomically modern humans emerged 200,000 years ago in Africa and migrated into Europe 40,000 years ago. In about 10,000 years, Europe’s longtime inhabitants, Neanderthals, became extinct. The mainstream interpretation is that modern humans somehow replaced them without interbreeding.
In previous research, Dr. Lahn and associates discovered that a gene for brain size called microcephalin underwent a significant change 37,000 years ago. Its modified variant, or allele, appeared to confer a fitness advantage on those who possessed it. It is now present in about 70 percent of the world’s population.
The new research focused on the two classes of alleles of the brain gene. One appeared to have emerged 1.1 million years ago in an archaic Homo lineage that led to Neanderthals and was separate from the immediate predecessors of modern humans. The 37,000-year date for the other variant immediately suggested a connection with Neanderthals.
Dr. Lahn said it did not necessarily show that interbreeding was widespread. It could have been a rare, perhaps even single, event.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Fortunately you can't still be burnt at the stake for heresy, so here goes. I have long believed that HSS and HSN must have interbred as the easiest way of explaining the sudden flowering of art and the very different skeletal build amongst Europeans at least. All othe explanations seem to me to be too complex, sooo is HSN extinct? In a sense I think not, if the two species interbred and their offspring are now the modern HSS both Neandertal man AND Cro-Magnon must be extinct, having both been superceded by their cross bred offspring.
