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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:30 am
by Ciko
new archelogist from egypt has arrived in visoko

Lamia al-Hadidy , we will see what she says tomorow about pyramid

:D

Image

Re: well

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:35 am
by Guest
stellarchaser wrote:Osmanagich just gave hypothesis that Visococa Hill could be pyramid
Osmanagich has stated on his OWN website several times that the hill is definitely a pyramid. This thread started with a statement for us all to prepare ourselves for the revelation of the century. Yet anyone who disagrees is regarded as fanatical?
stellarchaser wrote: And in the fact that he is not an archeologist I see only shame that archeologists in Bosnia are sitting on their fat **sses, instead of going on the field. Bosnia in whole is an archeological gold mine (regardless on Visocica), and it's shame that lots of people are getting their salaries doing nothing. And when somebody does something, they start to moan from their nice warm offices.
A typical statement from someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. As an archaeologist myself, I know from bitter experience that nothing happens without FUNDING. And THAT doesn't grow on trees; you have to persuade the relevant financiers that there is something worth their investment, and then you have to research the background, get the necessary permits, equipment and staff, and usually try to fit it around an academic timetable. That's your idea of doing nothing?! It would be lovely if archaeologists had NOTHING better to do than drop everything and go dig every time some half-wit came up with a new "discovery", but REAL life isn't like that.
Ciko wrote: New archaeologist from Egypt has arrived in Visoko
And you think she's going to be able to give a DEFINITE answer after one whole day of surveying that hill?

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:42 am
by Ciko
And you think she's going to be able to give a DEFINITE answer after one whole day of surveying that hill?
i dont know but, remeber that excavation started 14 april they have excavated large area and many stone blocks i think than she can give some answer tomorow

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:56 am
by f9
RK Awl-O'Gist

You have to learn marketing from Mr Sam.Pyramid or Tomb of Alexander is not a option,try with Great Roman Wall .Ciko is not guilty what you havent Pyramid in your backyard...be polite and learn.

reply

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:07 pm
by Guest
Ciko wrote:i dont know but, remeber that excavation started 14 april they have excavated large area and many stone blocks i think than she can give some answer tomorow
Ciko,
About three pages ago, I quoted an excerpt of a news interview Osmanagich gave last DECEMBER, in which he stated for definite that Visoko was a "pyramid"; that was four months BEFORE excavations started! So, does he have the gift of second sight or something, or is he just a con man trying to make a quick buck?
f9,
If that was a cheap attempt to imply that I'm somehow jealous that Britain doesn't have a pyramid, I can't remember the last time I heard something so childish.
As for being patient and learning, I've been looking at the same pictures ad nauseum for 60-odd pages; how much patience am I expected to possess?

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:22 pm
by eratoh
f9 wrote:RK Awl-O'Gist

You have to learn marketing from Mr Sam.Pyramid or Tomb of Alexander is not a option,try with Great Roman Wall .Ciko is not guilty what you havent Pyramid in your backyard...be polite and learn.
mr sams type of marketing is illegal in the civilized world because it has no other purpose but to decieve and take advantage of the less fortunate.

enjoy your lesson in western style capitalistic hucksterism boys & girls.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:45 pm
by stan
Thanks to Paul H. for the clear-headed and well-informed geological presentations.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:46 pm
by Paul H.
f9 wrote:I agree with you,confusion have a base for sandstone pavements wich have been widely used in the Balcan region for pavements mostly folowing ripple marks.I personaly have seen builded pavements wich have been done with care and they have exactly same look like picture above,but have been made in 1920s from stone from some Bosnian quarry.
I am well aware of that. People do the same thing up north in Arkansas. The problem is that I find it quite impossible to believe that someone would take the time and trouble to fit the stones such that all of the ripple marks are oriented all in the same direction. If you have examples where this was done, I love to see proof of it in the form of pictures. In some pictures, the same ripple mark can be seen on different sides of the fracture on separate blocks. In order for this to happen, the blocks would had to have been place in the exact same position, block for block, as they were removed from the ground. I would be greatly surprised and seriously doubt if any of the pavements, which talk about, had have this sort of extreme care taken in the placement of the blocks.
f9 wrote:Probably these are natural phenomena here because of sedimentary layers wich can be seen in the cut above pavement.
That is why I previously stated "Given other pictures, which clearly show one layer of block going under intact, stratified bedrock in the sides of this "excavation", it is quite clear that both layers are nothing more than jointed bedrock." Some examples of the natural sedimentary layering, under which the beds of jointed bedrock extend, are:

Image

Image

Image

These pictrues are from the "Prona?en novi ulaz u podzemni tunel - 11.06.2006" web page at:

http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/news_i ... NewsID=113

The layering exposed in the cuts is typical of the layering, which is found in lake deposits. This layering is neither the basket loading nor any other layering produced by teh construction of man-made structures how.

Yours,

Paul H.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:23 pm
by Beagle

'BOSNIAN PYRAMIDS': A PSEUDOARCHAEOLOGICAL MYTH AND A THREAT TO THE EXISTING CULTURAL AND HISTORICAL HERITAGE OF BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA

Dear Director-General Koichiro Matsuura,

At the beginning of this month, the international media reported that UNESCO is to send a team of archaeology experts to Bosnia, to 'probe the Bosnian mystery pyramid'. This came after the Bosnian media reported that Mr. Sulejman Tihic, the President of Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency, talked about the alleged discovery of pyramids in Bosnia to Mr. Koichiro Matsuura, the UNESCO Director-General, at a recent international summit. The discovery refers to the claims made in October 2005 by a self-proclaimed expert on ancient civilizations, Mr. Semir Osmanagic, that the Visocica hill near the town of Visoko in central Bosnia-Herzegovina hides the world’s biggest and oldest pyramid. Recently, Mr. Osmanagic told the Bosnian media that Mr. Matsuura concluded that there is 'certain' proof of the existence of the Visoko pyramids and implied that this conclusion was the reason UNESCO decided to send a team of experts to Visoko.

Ignoring the public outcries by the Bosnian-Herzegovinian geologists, archaeologists and historians, Mr. Osmanagic started excavating in the area in the fall of 2005 and continued in the spring of 2006. His activities raise great concerns about the survival of existing cultural and historical heritage in the area.

The Visocica hill – location of the Bosnian medieval capital Visoki

On the Visocica hill, claimed by Mr. Osmanagic to be the world's earliest pyramid, are the remains of the royal Bosnian town of Visoki. The remains of the town's main fort, located on the summit of the hill, are protected as a national monument. Bosnian archaeologists and historians have on many occasions publicly warned that amateur excavations by Mr. Osmanagic will irreversibly damage this important Bosnian site. In turn, Mr. Osmangic has publicly proclaimed all of his critics to be bad Bosnian patriots and all Bosnian scientists who do not support his pyramid project to be 19th-century relics. His team of amateurs does not include one single archaeologist familiar with the history and archaeology of the area, and they continually purport the false idea that the medieval town of Visoki was only the size of 30x60m. It would be very difficult to believe that the capital of the medieval Bosnian Kingdom and also a very important trade center of the area, mentioned in numerous charters of the 14th and 15th century was smaller than a football field.

Also, there are indications of deliberate supression of those archaeological finds that do not fit the theories of Mr. Osmanagic and his team.

The Visoko region – location of the earliest historical traces of the Bosnian statehood

Since Mr. Osmanagic broadened his activities to other hills in the Visoko valley, there is great concern that other archaeological sites could be in danger. The initial excavations at the Pljesevica hill, which he has dubbed the Pyramid of the Moon, revealed a tiled pavement. Mr. Osmanagic asserts that the pavement somehow belongs to the pyramid structure. But without proper excavation techniques, we cannot tell what the «pavement» belong to, or even if it is man-made at all.

The Visoko region is, in many ways, the heart of the historic Bosnia. It is home to the remains of over five different neolithic settlements; of Illyrian and Roman ruins (fortifications and roads); of numerous medieval necropoleis of stecci (sing.: stecak; a particular form of Bosnian medieval tombstones, often decorated with reliefs and inscriptions). In addition, there is the nearby village of Muhasinovici, where a decorated plate with inscription of a famous 12th-century Bosnian ruler, Kulin ban, was found (also indicating remains of a church and settlement in the vicinity), as well as the village of Arnautovici (the medieval town of Mile where Bosnian 14-15th century kings were crowned) with the remains of king Tvrtko royal and burial church. The remains of the royal medieval town of Visoki, a preserved national monument, sit right on top of the hill Osmanagic claims to be a pyramid and in the town of Visoko itself are three old Ottoman mosques and the Orthodox church of St. Procopius, all national monuments. Even more important, this region is known for occasional and accidental archaeological finds that indicate yet more historical structures, but systematic long-term archaeological projects have never been carried out here.

The late Bosnian archeologist, Mr. Pavo Andjelic, after years of studying the region, in the late 1980s proposed that the early medieval Bosnian town of Desnek should be searched for in that very area. Desnek and Katera are the first Bosnian urban settlements from the 10th century to be mentioned in a written historical source, the Byzantine scripts of Constantine Porphyrogenitos. These towns have not yet been located by the Bosnian archeologists.

Semir Osmanagic

Mr. Osmanagic has no credentials in archaeology. His work, in fact, carries all the hallmarks of pseudoarchaeology, as recently defined in some detail. Many features of his project make this conclusion clear: Osmanagic reached his conclusions about the existence of alleged pyramids before investigative work was carried out, to the point of even naming the supposed pyramids; the work was undertaken to prove Mr. Osmanagic's conclusions, not to test them (he says, on his own webpage: "I am working intensively on proving the improvable"); extreme, history-altering claims are being promoted on the basis of flimsy or non-existent "evidence"; countervailing evidence is suppressed; Mr. Osmanagic runs a slick PR exercise and communicates his "results" directly to the press rather than through genuine, scientific channels; critics of Mr. Osmanagic's enterprise are met with political sloganeering rather than reasoned argument; Mr. Osmanagic is guided by a powerful nationalist ideology, which distorts and corrupts his efforts (he says: "Bosnia is a source of civilization of Europe and that is a reason enough that Bosnians should be proud of their heritage"); several archaeologists are claimed to support the project, when they are either not involved or actively oppose Mr. Osmanagic's destructive efforts (e.g., Prof. Bruce Hitchner of Tufts University, USA; a signatory to this letter); the whole enterprise is being run as a money-making exercise rather than a scientific investigation; the academic credentials of many supporters are proudly proclaimed, when those credentials have nothing to do with archaeology.

We could go on. Let there be no doubt: Mr. Osmanagic is conducting a pseudoarchaeological project that, disgracefully, threatens to destroy parts of Bosnia's real heritage.

Conclusion

The pyramid claims of Mr. Osmanagic and the activities of his team pose serious threat to the rich historical, cultural and archaeological heritage of the Visoko region. The visit of the UNESCO experts to this area should not be allowed to be represented by Mr. Osmanagic as support for his pseudoarchaeological claims.

This visit, should it occur, ought also to include Bosnian experts, geologists, archaeologists and historians and allow for their scientific opinion to be heard. Bosnia-Herzegovina came out of the 1992-95 war without some of her most important and beautiful cultural and historical heritage gems. It would be irresponsible to let pseudoarchaeology finish off what is left intact.

This letter will also be published in the online edition of Archaeology Magazine, the publication of the Archaeological Institute of America. Other media will be informed as well.

Signatories:

Mark Rose, Online Editorial Director, Archaeological Institute of America, PhD in Classical Archaeology (Aegean Prehistory), Indiana University, USA

R. Bruce Hitchner, Professor and Chair of the Department of Classics, Tufts University, USA; Chairman of the Dayton Project

Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, Emeritus Professor of Anthropology, Wayne State University, USA

Andras Riedlmayer, Harvard University, USA

Dubravko Lovrenovic, Professor of History, Faculty of Philosophy, University of Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina; member of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Commission to Protect National Monuments

Garrett G. Fagan, Associate Professor of Classics and Ancient Mediterranean Studies and History, Penn State University, USA

Paul V. Heinrich, Research Associate 4, Louisiana Geological Survey, Louisiana State University, USA

Richard Carlton, Museum of Antiquities, University of Newcastle upon Tyne; director of the Archaeological Practice, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK

Mary  Lefkowitz, Mellon Professor in the Humanities Emerita,  Wellesley College, Dept. of Classical Studies, USA

Katherine Reece, owner of In the Hall of Ma’at website : http://www.hallofmaat.com/ ; contributing author to "Archaeological Fantasies: How pseudoarchaeology misrepresents the past and misleads the public"

Anthony Harding, President of the European Association of Archaeologists

Michael Witzel, Wales Prof. of Sanskrit, Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University, USA

Kenneth L. Feder, Ph.D, Professor at the Department of Anthropology, Central Connecticut State University, USA

Alun Salt, Mphil, World Archaeology (Cantab), Archaeoastronomer for the Centre for Interdisciplinary Science, University of Leicester, UK

Martin Smith, Research Assistant (PhD thesis under examination), Australian National University, Australia

Gabriel Haslip-Viera, Professor, Social Historian and Chair of the Department of Sociology, The City College of CUNY, USA

Blagoje Govedarica, professor of Archeology at the Heidelberg University, Germany; member of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Arts and Sciences Academy (Center for the Balkan Studies)

Gary Huckleberry, Ph.D., Chairman of the Archaeological Geology Division of the Geological Society of America, Tucson, USA

Steve Farmer, Ph.D., Portola, California, USA

John W. Hoopes, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Department of Anthropology, University of Kansas, USA

Francesco Brighenti, Ph.D., VAIS -- Venetian Academy of Indian Studies, Venice, Italy

Christopher Hale, Producer of pseudoarchaeological exposés for the BBC, UK

Mike Brass, MA in Archaeology degree, University College London, UK; "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com

Greg Reeder, www.egyptology.com

David Meadows, B.A. in Classical History and Civilization and History, University of Calgary; B.A. in Latin, also from the U of C; and M.A. in Classics from Queen's (Kingston); and ABD in Roman Studies at McMaster, Canada

Christopher O'Brien, Ph.D., Forest Archaeologist/Adjunct Professor, USDA Forest Service/California State University, USA


Just for information to board members. This is not a solicitation. I imagine that passionate people from both sides of this issue will be trying to influence the UNESCO team in advance of their arrival.

This letter is obviously in favor of halting the excavation.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:53 pm
by Minimalist
This letter is obviously in favor of halting the excavation.


Of course.....the 'club' desperately wants to make sure that nothing is found.

:wink:

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:14 pm
by Guest
Of course.....the 'club' desperately wants to make sure that nothing is found.
you practice the same techniques.

i see nothing sinister about that letter and feel it is justified given the nature of the atmosphere permeating this whole venture. i think their reasoning is sound and not conspiratory.

if you notice on the pictures highlighted by paul w., you will notice that the 'stones' are placed on top of each level not on the side to hold the ground together. that alone should give an indication that what is there is either not man-made or is simply a walking path or decorative enhancement. put any real weight on those tiers and they would collapse in a heart beat.
Just for information to board members. This is not a solicitation. I imagine that passionate people from both sides of this issue will be trying to influence the UNESCO team in advance of their arrival
i really don't see the purpose of unesco's visit. it is not like they have any real authority so why are they going to visit?

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:43 pm
by Minimalist
i see nothing sinister about that letter and feel it is justified given the nature of the atmosphere permeating this whole venture

Of course not. You are one of those people with a vested interest in making sure that nothing which undermines your belief system is ever found.


Unfortunately for you, the world has passed you by.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:01 pm
by Guest
Unfortunately for you, the world has passed you by.
no. you and os are just going in the wrong direction.

the only reason i can see Os doing this investigation in this manner is that it is the only way he would get funding.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:04 pm
by Minimalist
Why don't look through your bible for the answer?

Bob and Arch

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:03 pm
by MichelleH
You two have your very own playgrounds. Don't drag it into other boards. :lol:

MichelleH