Noah's Flood...

[Tech]

Why is this thread 64 pages long ??
The devistation that would be caused by a worlwide flood would be evident to a blind geologist 100 millenia later.
Arch , you wont accept maths, facts or evidence .
You have your book , you have your faith , like any of your ilk you will never change your views .
So why argue ??
Stick to non religeous threads , then we can get back to archaeology .

[Guest]

Why is this thread 64 pages long ??

because people disagree with 'the Book' and rely on their own knowledge and understanding to get toan answer.

this is why i say science is a limited tool, because it omits the data that would allow it to consider possibilities beyond its realm. to think and accept that science can answer for the supernatural when it doesn't even allow for the supernatural to be a factor, is just unrealistic.

this is one of the crux's of the issues when it comes to Biblical accounts. that is like saying 't.v. doesn't exist because i don't watch t.v.' even though i see evidence of t.v. by all the paranaphalia set out for sale, my data restricts that evidence for t.v. thus it doesn't factor into the equations, theorizing and concludes that t.v. does not exist

yet those who watch t.v. know that it does exist and no matter how hard they try to put the evidence for t.v. into the calculations, it is omitted because the restrictions say there can be no evidence for t.v. allowed. it doesn't fit the scientific idea.

i think you get the gist of what i am saying, it is useless to use science to cast judgment upon an event when it disallows for all the data to be considered.

yes there are things that mystify science but that does not discount the event nor disqualify it from taking place.

[Frank Harrist]

Arch, you got something against reality? You seem to avoid it all the time. Archaeologists have found 2 or 3 thousand year old destruction layers in cities in the middle east. These cities were more in tune with their environment than modern cities and made less of an impact. NO will definitely show evidence of destruction for thousands of years. I thought you were a real archaeologist. Have you ever worked in the field? If I can find definite proof of a Caddo habitation, made from all organic/natural/bidegradeable materials after it's been in the ground for a thousand years then they should be able to find evidence of a destruction layer in a city the size of New Orleans for a very long time. You really should try to find and read that article from archaeology magazine. They found evidence of fires from a couple hundred years ago and were surprised at just how much was left over after the cleanup. It addresses the very issue we are discussing. I'll find it at home and bring it and maybe I can give you the high points on it.

[Guest]

NO will definitely show evidence of destruction for thousands of years. I thought you were a real archaeologist.

what you say is probable but what activity was surounding those discoveries before they were buried? with new orleans, we are going to see a lot of reconstruction, a lot of earth removal, a lot of repaving etc.

so i amjust using it as an example and questioning how much evidence would beleft over after all tis activity to support the devastation afffect.

i am not saying there won't be but i am trying to illustrate a point that with all that has happened in the world since the flood, will we find the evidence to put the debate to rest and finally declare there is physical proof for a global disaster?

it has been mentioned that there are so many local floods which means that Noah's gets lost inthe shuffle because people find it easier to believe in local devastation since it happens all the time. so i am proposing that the global flood evidence will be minimal, mixed in with local disasters or buried so deep because of all the man made devastation (wars, nuclear explosions, and so on).

thus to dismiss the global flood because there is little evidence remaining would be unrealistic.

[Minimalist]

I thought you were a real archaeologist

Where did you ever get that idea, Frank?

[Minimalist]

Noah's gets lost inthe shuffle because people

Noah's gets lost in the shuffle because it never happened.

[Guest]

Noah's gets lost in the shuffle because it never happened.

i think that is as good an example as anything to backup my point.

[Frank Harrist]

http://www.archaeology.org/0607/abstracts/katrina.html
here's the article or at least and abstract of it.

[DougWeller]

A global flood, besides killing most of the plant life as well as animals and fish, would have left consistent geological evidence all over the globe.

Archeologist has never dealt with Mark Isaak's arguments.

[ed]

Since our buddy isn't multithreadinal I will repost why the notion of a global flood is absurd.

Out of the interest of completeness [He has no life.--Ed.] I decided to perform the calculations I suggested HungryforFaith try.

The radius of the Earth [rE--Ed.] varies so I will use the average of 6,372.795477598 km = 6,372,795.478 meters ~ 3,959.87 miles.

As noted previously, the waters have to cover the mountains to satisfy both extant biblical Flood Myths. If I wished to be "strict" I would use Mt. Everest, but I will be "nice" and use the highest mountain in Palestine, Mt. Hermon, which is 9,232 ft or ~2,814 meters high.

To calculate the volume of the Flood [VF--Ed.], one needs to subtract the volume of the Earth [VE--Ed.] from the volume of the Flood and Earth [VF+E--Ed.]

Recalling grade school geometry:


Volume of Sphere = 4/3πr3


to get VF+E, we need the radius of the Flood [rF--Ed.] which is the height of Mt. Hermon added to rE:


rF = rE + Mt Hermon = 6,375,609.478 meters which I will round-up to 6,375,610 meters to cover the mountains.


Thus:


rE = 6,372,795.478 meters
rF = 6,375,610 meters

VE = 1.084122985 X 1021 m3
VF+E = 1.085559749 X 1021 m3

VF = 1.4367645 X 1018 m3 of water


Now we need the surface area of Earth [SAE--Ed.] Since:


Surface Area of Sphere = 4πr2


SAE = 5.103520056 X 1014 m2 of Earth.

Thus, 2,815.242194 m3 of water per m2 of Earth ~ 743,707.73 US liquid gallons water per m2 of Earth.

Yes . . . I could simplify this damn thing, but I do not wish to lose Creationists.

Now, nearly 750,000 gallons hitting each square meter sounds like a lot. How long does it take accumulate? Well, what do the myths say?


J: Gen 7:4

Because in seven more days I will rain on the Earth, forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe out all the substance that I have made on the face of the Earth.

P:Gen 7:12

And there was rain on the Earth, forty days and forty nights.


Since, 40 days = 40(24 hrs)(60 min/hr)(60 s/min) = 3456000 s we have 0.00081495 m3 of water per m2 of Earth per second = 0.8 Liters/m2E-s = 0.215 193 36 gallons/m2E-s.

Now, what is the pressure exerted by this rainfall? Since 1L = 0.998 kg, the mass of the water per m2E-s is:


0.7984 kg/m2E-s = 1.76 lbs/m2E-s


PSI is pounds per square inch, 1 m2 = 1,550.003100006 inch2, we have 2,728 psi applied every second of this period to the surface area of the Earth. "Googling" home water pressures, you find pipe rated for under 300 psi. A "booster" fire hose gives you only 800 psi.

What type of pressure is that? Since 14.6960 psi corresponds to one atmosphere we are talking about 189 atm applied to the Earth during the 40 day/night period!

That is 189 atm applied to mountains, the ark, et cetera!

Interestingly, 4,600 psf, or 4,600 pounds per square foot, is the pressure created by Hiroshima atomic bomb at the epicenter. Since there are 144 square inches per square foot, that comes to only about 32 psi, a mere 1/83rd of the pressure of the rain.

A site that raises the implications of the absurdity of a global flood is here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noa ... plications

Unfortunately these are physical facts that simply are, like gravity is 32 feet per second per second. You can whine and bitch about it but those are the facts.

For all of his protestations about science I suspect our pal flew a jet to wherever it is, whose design (which kept him aloft) was based on many of the same elemental truths contained in the site that I mentioned.

Science is bad unless I get something out of it. Evolution is bad unless I get a vaccine or eat beef or vegitables whose increased yields are directly due to the principles that he rejects.

Gotta love hippocracy.

[Minimalist]

Noah's gets lost in the shuffle because it never happened.

i think that is as good an example as anything to backup my point.

What point is that? That you are divorced from reality?

[Guest]

were focused on getting ahead of the bulldozers that will follow in the next ten years.

this adds to my question, frank. how much evidence will be left if the bulldozers cover a large part of the city (i amnot talking writtenor video but physical evidence).

but I will be "nice" and use the highest mountain in Palestine, Mt. Hermon, which is 9,232 ft or ~2,814 meters high

here you are assuming that today's geography was the same as pre-flood days. i highly doubt it was. read the book entitled, 'The Flood' by Dr. Rehwinkel. he gives a description of the pre-flood world.

Since, 40 days = 40(24 hrs)(60 min/hr)(60 s/min) = 3456000 s we have 0.00081495 m3 of water per m2 of Earth per second = 0.8 Liters/m2E-s = 0.215 193 36 gallons/m2E-s.

you have never been in a monsoon rainstorm, have you?

would have left consistent geological evidence all over the globe.

given the fact that any evidence for a global flood may be buried up to a depth of at least 100 feet at present, are you sure you can find all the evidence you need to support that contention?

Science is bad unless I get something out of it.

i have never said that.

[Essan]

The only evidence for a global flood is an interpretation of a folk tale from 3,000 years ago. Period.

Despite frequent requests, the only other evidence proferred is indicative of post glacial sea level rises and regional flood events such as we see occur ever year. On that basis, one must assume a global flood is in progress this very minute!

[DougWeller]

And there we go again. His main argument is from a book over half a century old by Alfred Rehwinkel.

About how the earth once had a tropical climate over the whole world.
"A diagram on page 10 also explains how if the earth was perpendicular to the plane of its orbit, there would have been no change in the seasons. The seasons may in fact be a result of the earth tilting 23 1/2 degrees at the time of the flood."

If anyone want to look at a discussion of the sort of fossil claims Rehman makes, see here: http://tinyurl.com/orxlj
If you scroll down, Douglas Cox introduces Rehman's junk.
An unrelated Cox, Ken Cox, points out what nonsense it is, commenting "At least, until someone shows me how a flood
can distinguish the trunks, leaves, and pollen of Cretaceous magnolias
from the trunks, leaves, and pollen of Pliocene magnolias. "

[ed]

[

Since, 40 days = 40(24 hrs)(60 min/hr)(60 s/min) = 3456000 s we have 0.00081495 m3 of water per m2 of Earth per second = 0.8 Liters/m2E-s = 0.215 193 36 gallons/m2E-s.

you have never been in a monsoon rainstorm, have you?

[

Abstract : This report provides a new model of hydrometeors and associated cloud-water content from the surface to 20 km. The model profiles at altitude were developed based on five surface rainfall rates: 36, 84, 168, 432, and 1872 mm/hr. The first three rates correspond to a frequency of occurrence of 0.5 percent, 0.1 percent, and 0.01 percent of the time during the worst month in the most severe area of the world for intense rainfall. The last two are the 42- and 1-min world record rainfalls.

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc ... tTRDoc.pdf
1872 mm/hr. exproplated from highest observed 1 min. rate
432 mm/hr extrapolated from highest observed 42 minute rate.

Therefore, in one hour using the highest rate, the rainfall is 1,872ml/m2/hour . Highest observed rate of rainfall by the US Government as of 1984.

For the "flood" we have 0.00081495 m3 of water per m2 of Earth per second(from above calculation)

Hmmmmmm ... need some conversions here

1 Cubic meter = 1000*1000*1000 ml = 10^9 ml therefore:

"Flood" rainfall=10^9*0.00081495 = 814,950ml/m2/hour.

Highest actually observed =1,872ml/m2/hour

So, Senator, I have seen the flood and your monsoon is no flood.

In point of fact, the floods rainfall would have been 435 times worse than anything you or anyone else ever experienced.

This little exercise illustrates an important point about religious belief. The data to refute the silly monsoon example carelessly thrown out was there for anyone to see. But, no. The arrogant "I believe and it must be so" attitude took over.

I trust that we all see how dangerous this attitude is in todays world. In the emerging economic environment wherein India, China and other players in the east are going to be at our throats economically, people like Arch want to dismiss the tools that we have that will allow us to compete. Hell, belief is better than data, scientific method is inferior to "knowing". A finding must be vetted against orthodoxy and if it fails, dismiss it.

Do you know what that constitutes? The idea that our children shuld be subjected to such drivel? Treason, pure and simple. We revert to a medieval mindset while our competitors advance.

Amazing in the year 2006.