Chris Hardaker's The First American

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:27 pm

Hello Chris and welcome.

I was recently at the dig site at Topper, in SC. While there one of the archaeologists loaned me a CD to view on my computer. It was about Valsequillo. I enjoyed your comments very much. It was a good show.

Looking forward to getting your book.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:33 pm

Minimalist wrote:
Give it a bit longer and some of the big names on your side of the pond will be wanting to take control and tell us they agreed with you all along really
As Art Buchwald said, "criticize the establishment long enough and they will make you part of it."

Maybe they'll give Charlie an honorary PH. D. of something?

No thanks. I could have already gone to U.T. or A&M and had my masters, but again, no thanks. Now a program like Indiana's I'd certainly consider, but no honorary B.S. I'd love to have a dissertation, like "Evidence for Homo Erectus in North America" funded. From the looks of Indiana’s archeology syllabi, that dissertation could be approved.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:35 pm

Welcome aboard, Chris!

Cognito · Post by **Cognito** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:30 pm

Chris, I have enjoyed your book immensely. I am presently at page 284 and have been waiting for these questions for more than a decade:

Did pre-Mods migrate to the New World several hundred thousand years ago and evolve into Mods a couple of hundred thousand years earlier than the Eurasian Mods?

Were Upper Paleolithic techs independently invented in the New World 200,000 years earlier than the Old World?

Did some of these New World Mods perhaps then migrate across the Atlantic around 50,000y and inspire the UP Revolution, only to return again to become the Clovis hunters?

Can you pass me that worm in the bottle?

Thanks for having the balls to put those questions in print!

Patrick

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:17 pm

Did some of these New World Mods perhaps then migrate across the Atlantic around 50,000y and inspire the UP Revolution, only to return again to become the Clovis hunters?

The two way street to which Virginia refers.

Neanderthal keeps popping into my mind.

To date , no definite Clovis or Solutrean skeletons, though a couple of suspects associated with red ocher and cremation.

Neanderthal disappears ca. 24,000 B.P. and Solutrean appears, out of nowhere, 21,000 B.P. 11,000 B.P., Clovis appears out of nowhere, and then disappears ca. 200 years later. North American Sandia technology seems very similar to Solutrean, and precedes both Clovis and Solutrean. Seems to be a common thread.

hardaker · Post by **hardaker** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:09 pm

I would be very cautious about anything Sandia for the time being. I know the preClovis folks really like to bring it up, but it is really a problem. The points have only turned up at two sites in NM, and Fibbin Hibbin was involved. Do yourselves a favor and keep Sandia out of the mix until a third site is found. BTW - contract archaeology and other kinds of fieldwork have been ongoing in NM for a century!! Why haven't there been any more than two Sandia "sites/components" -- the cave and the Lucy site -- located during all this time. Don't you find that just a wee bit suspicious?? Just a warning.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:15 am

Oh Boy! Sod the archaeology! Just imagine the red faces amongst the conventional experts and the Native Americans First if any of this proves to be correct.

Manystones · Post by **Manystones** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:24 am

Digit wrote:The one thing I have never been able to understand is WHY some people are so unwilling to accept the idea that man was capable of doing all these things earlier than last week! What the Hell is the problem?
If Chimps can fashion tools, if Crows can use tools, if hunting dogs and Chimps can learn to operate as a team, why are we supposed to be so bloody stupid?
Frankly, I find it insulting.

I second that Digit, seems this "model" based on taphonomic remanants isn't particularly robust and doesn't withstand falsification. So glad to see that standards are applied consistently across the board

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:44 am

hardaker wrote:I would be very cautious about anything Sandia for the time being. I know the preClovis folks really like to bring it up, but it is really a problem. The points have only turned up at two sites in NM, and Fibbin Hibbin was involved. Do yourselves a favor and keep Sandia out of the mix until a third site is found. BTW - contract archaeology and other kinds of fieldwork have been ongoing in NM for a century!! Why haven't there been any more than two Sandia "sites/components" -- the cave and the Lucy site -- located during all this time. Don't you find that just a wee bit suspicious?? Just a warning.

So Hibbin was known to stretch the truth a bit, ey? From what I've heard, 30-40 other Sandia-like points have been found around North America, but all out of context. I even found a Sandia-like point in the gravels here:

http://www.phpbb88.com/nohandaxesinus/v ... ndaxesinus

It has a single inset, and a small flute on its proximal end...reminiscent of "Sandia 1's".

Wormington seemed to think "Sandia points" were older than Clovis. Did she recant at a later point?

Thanks for the heads up Chris. Any more light you can shed on the alleged Sandia points will be much appreciated.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:15 am

Chris, what's the general opinion on what happened to the notes and artifacts?

Destroyed or just locked away?

Cognito · Post by **Cognito** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:37 am

Oh Boy! Sod the archaeology! Just imagine the red faces amongst the conventional experts and the Native Americans First if any of this proves to be correct.

Digit, nobody really knows the answer to North American artifacts at 250Kya but it is incumbent upon the scientific method to ask questions until there is an answer. Dismissing evidence since it should not exist is poor science.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:09 pm

Don't misunderstand me Cog, I agree with every word you said. I just happen to like the idea of those who DO refuse to examine things with an open mind wriggling on the hook.
It's not a novel event either, I might point out, Gallileo couldn't beat 'em either.
Forget the evidence for a minute, just imagine that man arose in Africa then made it to your neck of the woods before returning to Africa and/or Europe.
I can just see all the reputations crumbling and the book shelves being emptied to make room for the new.
I look forward to the excuses and explanations as to how they weren't wrong in their arguments. Like I said Cog, best comedy show in town.
Keep up the good work!

Cognito · Post by **Cognito** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:43 pm

I look forward to the excuses and explanations as to how they weren't wrong in their arguments. Like I said Cog, best comedy show in town.

Yes, Digit. The entire field is on the move and many Clovis Firsters could be left in the archaeological dust ... I wonder if Stuart Fiedel has started preparing his batch of cyanide laced Kool-Aid yet?

hardaker · Post by **hardaker** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:00 pm

Hi Folks,
The artifacts of Valsequillo, the photos, the notes, the sketches. all of Armenta's artifacts -- all missing. I heard a hopeful word a week ago that the INAH folks might have found a few of Armenta's pieces, but it was not clear if they were the engraved pieces. They are keeping everything very close to the vest down there. Like up here in the US, the word Valsequillo is a bigtime embarrassment in Mexico. My attitude: tough titties. Ego versus priceless treasures is not a contest.

Wormington did indeed think Sandia was below Clovis on the continuum, but you must realize this was back in the 60s and 70s. But try to get ahold of the NEW YORKER article in the mid-1990s about Frank Hibben; it will be worth the search. Virginia Steen-McIntyre turned me onto it years ago. Hibben may have been doing some hanky panky. Makes me sad, but it also makes me leary about what this guy was all about.

Chris

hardaker · Post by **hardaker** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:11 pm

QUESTIONS
"Did pre-Mods migrate to the New World several hundred thousand years ago and evolve into Mods a couple of hundred thousand years earlier than the Eurasian Mods?

Were Upper Paleolithic techs independently invented in the New World 200,000 years earlier than the Old World?

Did some of these New World Mods perhaps then migrate across the Atlantic around 50,000y and inspire the UP Revolution, only to return again to become the Clovis hunters?

Can you pass me that worm in the bottle?"

These were questions based more on irony than any attempt to reform the timelines and origins of modern human artifacts. Just some crazy ideas, that, alas, should be asked but maybe not too seriously, except for that delicious worm that helps to process all this new stuff. I don't believe for a moment that stuff about them being here and then going across the pond to inspire the UP, and then coming back to inspire the Clovis. But it was fun to put in writing, but I will probably be flogged unmercifully. Oh well, like Red Skelton said, If I do it, I will get a licking; I do'd it.
Chris

Archaeologica.org

Chris Hardaker's The First American

The First American

Huh?

Comedy