Archaeologica.org

Not exactly a lot of archaeological info, more on the lines of salvage, but still interesting.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wire ... asure-ship

Odyssey likely will return to the same spot for more coins and artifacts.

"We have treated this site with kid gloves and the archaeological work done by our team out there is unsurpassed," Odyssey CEO John Morris said. "We are thoroughly documenting and recording the site, which we believe will have immense historical significance."

I personally am looking forward to the write-up from an archaeological angle.

Star

Starflower wrote:Not exactly a lot of archaeological info, more on the lines of salvage, but still interesting.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wire ... asure-ship

Odyssey likely will return to the same spot for more coins and artifacts.

"We have treated this site with kid gloves and the archaeological work done by our team out there is unsurpassed," Odyssey CEO John Morris said. "We are thoroughly documenting and recording the site, which we believe will have immense historical significance."

I personally am looking forward to the write-up from an archaeological angle.

Star

Half a billion in old coins is quite the find. I'll be staying tuned.
Wow! What a mother lode!!

Here's one archaeologist's opinion: (Which I agree with)

Kevin Crisman, an associate professor in the nautical archaeology program at Texas A&M University, said salvage work on shipwrecks constituted “theft of public history and world history.”

He said the allure of treasure hidden under the sea seemed to blind the public to the ethical implications. “If these guys went and planted a bunch of dynamite around the Sphinx, or tore up the floor of the Acropolis, they’d be in jail in a minute,” Mr. Crisman said.

From this New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/19/us/19treasure.html?hp

And another:

George Bass, an archaeologist at Texas A&M University who specializes in shipwrecks, said he is skeptical of such early estimates, especially when so little information has been provided. "Very often, it's exaggerated because, of course, they need to get financial backers," he said.

From the Los Angeles Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la- ... 1899.story

I agree with you also Michelle. I should have used the rolling eyes smiley with my original post I was feeling very sarcastic when I quoted them.
I feel it's piracy, pure and simple, and a tragedy for real archaeology.

Star

The lure of gold has cost more lives than it ever saved and with that sort of reward in the offing archaeology will be damned lucky to get a look in I'm afraid. Hopefully I'll be wrong.

Unfortunately, money talks and with that kind of money involved you will never stop it.

The good news is that they may develop or refine techniques which can be used by archaeologists who are not drawn solely by the glint of gold.


The better news is that dumping that many coins onto the market may depress the price and cut down on their profit margin.

My wife has absolutely no interest in history or archaeology, and she of course is in the majority. I have never been able to understand how people can hold an ancient artifact in their hands and not wonder about who made it? What were they like? Did they think like us? What dreams did they have?
If any of you have a patent on a time machine let me in!

I noticed in the article that Britain made a deal with private treasure hunters. The hunters get 80% of the first $45,000,000 and then 50% after that.

Like making a deal with the devil, ey.

It's not like it sounds though Charley. The museums get the stuff they want you get cash, so in effect the the museum/state buys the stuff which you have to declare, and as soon as you do the archaeologists move in. Many interesting sites have been discovered by amateurs in this way.

Digit wrote:It's not like it sounds though Charley. The museums get the stuff they want you get cash, so in effect the the museum/state buys the stuff which you have to declare, and as soon as you do the archaeologists move in. Many interesting sites have been discovered by amateurs in this way.

I was under the impression the hunters sold the stuff off, and then gave a percentage of the proceeds to the government.

Progress was slow, but in 2002 the company signed an agreement with the government of the United Kingdom to explore the wreckage of the Sussex, an English warship that sank off the coast of Gibraltar in 1694. The gold onboard has been estimated to be worth hundreds of millions. Odyssey and the British government will split any proceeds.

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la- ... ome-center

Now if the government, or some wealthy philanthropist bought the whole batch of coins, keeping the collection together, and had them curated into a museum, I'd have no qualms about the deal.

Different case Charley, that was at sea. If my memory serves correctly the vessel was British but not in British waters so technically the loot was owned by the insurers or who ever succeeded them. As the government saw it in that case, it's make a deal with the salvers and take some of the loot.
Usually in these cases the salvage has monetary value but little of archeaological interest. A case some years ago was a vessel full of early Chinese porcelain that had a high monetary value amongst collectors but was well represented in national and private collections, so the government licenced salvers to recover what they could and took a cut. The government's cut is determined by the salvage value, minus costs, so that both sides make a profit.
On land you inform the proper people and the article is valued and either retained by the nation, and the value paid to the finder, or the finder is allowed to retain it if the nation does not wish to have it.
This encourages exploration and ensures that the proper protocols are adhered too.

I have to take a l capitalistic view of this type of case.
The simple fact is that Government’s, let alone museums, cannot afford to take on a project with these kinds of risks. It take lots of money and people in a position to take a chance with it. “Disposable income.” Money you can afford to lose. No board of governors would ever approve such a risky undertaking. If we don't let the private sector do it, it will never happen.
And nothing will be found.
In the case of the Sussex, I believe it was a British government owned ship, but it went down in international waters.
Off Spain.
Britain was going to claim ownership, and scare off Odyssey, until they found out the money involved in the recovery. Spain didn't care until they found out the money involved.
Lots of lawyers later, Britain signed off on the split deal because it wasn't yet a proven find and they didn't want to take the money risk. Spain went along for a small cut.
This sounds like a different wreck, but the president has been set. And I don’t think it is a bad one.

Digit wrote:Different case Charley, that was at sea. If my memory serves correctly the vessel was British but not in British waters so technically the loot was owned by the insurers or who ever succeeded them. As the government saw it in that case, it's make a deal with the salvers and take some of the loot.
Usually in these cases the salvage has monetary value but little of archeaological interest. A case some years ago was a vessel full of early Chinese porcelain that had a high monetary value amongst collectors but was well represented in national and private collections, so the government licenced salvers to recover what they could and took a cut. The government's cut is determined by the salvage value, minus costs, so that both sides make a profit.
On land you inform the proper people and the article is valued and either retained by the nation, and the value paid to the finder, or the finder is allowed to retain it if the nation does not wish to have it.
This encourages exploration and ensures that the proper protocols are adhered too.

I see what your saying, and if it's true that the coins are well represented in government holdings, museums, etc...and if the government or private philanthropists don't wish to fund and curate the assets, then selling the pieces on e-bay, basically, might be the best deposition of the antique coins.

Putting a twist on the scenario, how would you feel about me auctioning off, to the highest bidder, piecemeal, the following artifacts, recovered from the same site:




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone129.jpg

Hypothesized Flute- Dorsal Side ca. 6"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone130.jpg

Hypothesized Flute-Ventral Side- ca. 6"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone131.jpg

Hypothesized Flute- Distal End- ca. 6"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone132.jpg

Hypothesized Flute- Proximal/ Dorsal View- ca. 6"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone133.jpg

Hypothesized Flute- Proximal/ Ventral View- ca. 6"- Lima-Igl



Location where Hypothesized Flute was Discovered

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http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... s%2013.jpg

Clovis Point- 1 15/16"- Ventral View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... s%2014.jpg

Clovis Point- 1 15/16"- Dorsal View- Lima-Igl
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Magnetic artifacts recovered from the lower strata of Lima-Igl (the iron stained and charred cobble stratum):




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2012.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 1- Dorsal View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2011.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 1- Lateral View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20139.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 1- Ventral View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2097.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 2- Dorsal View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20140.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 2- Ventral View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20141.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 2- Lateral View- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20136.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 3- Dorsal View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20137.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 3- Ventral View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20138.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 3- Lateral View- Lima-Igl

These artifacts ping iron, zinc and silver, on a hobbyist metal detector.

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http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20441.jpg

Possible PreClovis Handaxe- Dorsal View- 4.875" X 3.75" X 1.5"- Romeo-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20442.jpg

Possible PreClovis Handaxe- Proximal/ Dorsal View- 4.875" X 3.75" X 1.5"- Romeo-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20445.jpg

Possible PreClovis Handaxe- Ventral View- 4.875" X 3.75" X 1.5"- Romeo-Igl


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http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2037.jpg

__________________________________________________________



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2025.jpg

Casting mold when it was first cleared of fill.



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2028.jpg

Casting mold completely cleared of fill.



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2029.jpg

Close-up of mold.



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2026.jpg

Mold in relation to furnace.

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http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20181.jpg

Possible PreClovis Biface- Dorsal View- 4 1/8"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20180.jpg

Possible PreClovis Biface- Ventral View- 4 1/8"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20182.jpg

Possible PreClovis Biface- Proximal/ Dorsal View- 4 1/8"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20183.jpg

Possible PreClovis Biface- Proximal/ Ventral View- 4 1/8"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20186.jpg

Possible PreClovis Biface- Distal/ Ventral View- 4 1/8"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20184.jpg

Possible PreClovis Biface- Distal/ Dorsal View- 4 1/8"- Lima-Igl

___________________________________________________________

Bottom line: I just don't like the idea of splitting up collections, recovered from one site. The whole collection tells a much more complete story than the piecemeal arifacts.

My interest in things ancient arose from a school trip to the county museum, which had originally been a private collection, amongst other exhibits was a cast of the Piltdown skull. Exhibit after exhibit was on display in glass fronted cabinets with little or no information available.
These were examples of the 19C collecting mania with every museum attempting to create the largest collection possible.
To handle a flint point is to handle a stone, or to hold a piece the person who created it, the difference depends on the holder.
If some diver wants to risk his neck recovering gold coins with little or no archaeological interest that's up to him, and what is done with them subsequently is no interest to me.
If breaking a collection reduces its archaeological value I would not approve, if that does not apply then I have no concerns.
I personally would exchange the Giza pyramids for a time machine that would allow us to understand exactly what was in the builder's minds, how they lived, how they thought, what they dreamt.

Sounds like you would have made a great anthroplogist, Digit.

Ahhh, but then you would have been expected to join the club...

Never mind.