Sometime I Just Don't Understand Academics At All

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Sam Salmon
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Sometime I Just Don't Understand Academics At All

Post by Sam Salmon »

As per the subject line this article, this undertaking, makes little sense to me.

Is it an intellectual exercise and as such not meant to be taken seriously?

The tie in with a TV programme is apt I suppose and these students needs aren't IMO being well served by using a gel filled dummy to test arrows. :roll:

Anyone who's ever slaughtered-or even seen the slaughter-of large Mammals particularly Ungulates-knows they aren't full of gel but bone, muscle, sinew and are covered with a thick tough hide.

The advances provided by heavier Mammal killing ordnance include less time pursuing wounded prey and greater caloric intake from the bodies of larger better fed animals.

I could go on and on but I hope you see my point-this whole idea of 'wooden arrows are just as good' is a very poorly thought out line of reasoning.

In addition I had spell check correct the article spelling somewhat here-turns out they couldn't even spell Archaeologist-or they used a regional variant from deepest darkest Wyoming
.
:roll:

http://www.physorg.com/news101738390.html


Archaeologists Turn to Professional MythBusters for Stone-Age Experiment

In the Stone Age, prehistoric peoples created weapons by making stone projectile points and affixing them to arrow and spear shafts. Until now, no one has researched the technological advantage or disadvantage of the arrowhead to prehistoric culture.

With the help of Discovery Channel MythBusters Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage, two University of Wyoming archaeologists pledged to find out about the arrowhead’s significance to ancient cultures.

Nicole Waguespack and Todd Surovell, both in the UW Department of Anthropology, a few years ago began to question the purpose of arrowheads. The objects had long been accepted in their profession as an important component of prehistoric weaponry.

The concept that projectile points were used to advance hunting has been perpetuated throughout history, but wasn't based on any meaningful evidence, according to the UW researchers.

"The importance of the arrowhead was a myth, so-to-speak," Waguespack says.

"Archeologists are absolutely obsessed with (projectile points). They are some of the prettiest things we find from the Stone Age and exemplify some of the more difficult objects to make," Surovell says. He adds those factors alone didn't make them significant.

"Nicole proposed that perhaps you didn't even need an arrowhead because a sharpened wooden arrow would do the trick. In fact, attaching the chipped stone projectile point to the end of an arrow adds more work to the production of the arrow," he says.

"It sounds really fundamental, but no one has ever explained why the projectile point makes an arrow or a thrown spear so much more effective. Is it the weight? Is it the fact it has a better cutting edge?" Waguespack says. "We find (arrowheads) all over the world in all times and places. It seems like a very basic question and archeologists should know why everyone made them."

While watching episodes of "MythBusters," a popular cable series that aims to separate truth from urban legend, Surovell and Waguespack realized the show could help shed light on Waguespack's hypothesis.


"It became very clear to us that this experiment was a pretty simple thing for them to do, they had all of the necessary equipment," Surovell explains.

He wrote an e-mail to Hyneman and proposed collaborating on the experiment. He didn't pitch the experiment for the show, but two weeks later, the researchers were invited to San Francisco to record the segment.

"For the show, Adam sharpened arrow shafts and Jamie tried to make a chipped stone projectile point. They timed each process, and discussed the fact that the pointy stick was a lot easier and faster to make," Waguespack says.

Then the team shot uniform arrows with and without arrowheads into a ballistics gel torso. The gel provided a consistent medium. A rig was used to fire the bow automatically and control draw tension. They measured each shot to see which weapon had greater penetration.

The UW researchers never intended for their experiment to be shown on television, they just wanted to take advantage of some hard-to-come-by equipment. Even so, Waguespack says the segment might serve a dual purpose: to resolve the questions about arrowheads' significance to prehistoric cultures, and to peak public interest in archeology.

"I think to have a little segment on the show questioning the use and benefits of arrowheads will make people more curious about artifacts and the questions archeologists face," Waguespack says. "We are trying to figure out how these things fit into the technological repertoire of prehistoric peoples."

So, how did the arrowhead fit into the technology of prehistoric peoples? To discover whether superiority of an arrow with an affixed projectile point was busted as a myth or confirmed as fact, tune into MythBusters. Visit discovery.com for a program schedule.
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Post by Minimalist »

Image


People who had to hunt to eat were not interested in measuring the penetrating power. They were interested in inflicting as big a wound as possible so that the animal went down quicker. The arrowhead spreads the wound out because of the barbs, increasing the chance of hitting an artery. The barbs also prevent the arrow from being easily removed.

The near universality of projectile points means that someone found an advantage in using them. Otherwise, why not stick to simple sharpened wooden spears? You get lots of bang for the buck that way....although you do have to get awfully close to some awfully big animals to use them.
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Post by Starflower »

It seemed to me to be just one very long commercial plugging the Mythbusters show. Luckily it didn't rouse my curiosity enough to actually consider watching their program to learn the 'rest of the story'.
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Post by Minimalist »

Target arrow:

Image


Hunting arrow:

Image


There is a reason why this is done.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Sam Salmon
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Post by Sam Salmon »

I wonder why they never consulted any big game bow hunters in Wyoming-with all the hunting in the area there must be a shop where these people congregate and their collective knowledge would be considerable.
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Post by Minimalist »

Mythbusters does some good stuff but they are technicians. They take an idea and try to figure out how to test it. They did a great job recreating the Baghdad Battery and using it to electroplate a coin.

But if someone comes to them and says, "let's test the penetrating power of a wood arrow versus a stone tipped arrow" that's exactly what they will do.

If someone said "does a car made out of mud bricks stop better than a car made out of steel" they will test that hypothesis without worrying about whether or not the mud brick car will survive a rainstorm.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Sam Salmon
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Post by Sam Salmon »

Minimalist wrote:If someone said "does a car made out of mud bricks stop better than a car made out of steel" they will test that hypothesis without worrying about whether or not the mud brick car will survive a rainstorm.
LMAO!!! :lol: :lol:
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Post by Forum Monk »

I think you are probably correct Min, with your maximum damage hypothesis. Much more opportunity to cut something vital with a hunting arrow, than a target arrow, although aerodynamics may suffer.

I think in the beginning they may have been hand delivered so to speak, on the end of a long stick or spear. They could penetrate, snap off and the hunter run for safety while the large wounded animal soon died. Later, someone probably figured out how to make a bow.
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Post by Minimalist »

I wasn't even going to get into the atlatl v archery dispute, Monk, but you're correct.

Also, looking over the original article I think they understated the manpower involved in making the shaft and attaching the feathers. If you could get a point to come off so you could recover the shaft before the animal had a chance to break it you would be saving yourself a hell of a lot of work.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Clovis

Post by Cognito »

Also, looking over the original article I think they understated the manpower involved in making the shaft and attaching the feathers. If you could get a point to come off so you could recover the shaft before the animal had a chance to break it you would be saving yourself a hell of a lot of work.
Absolutely, and that's the beauty of the Clovis fluted point. You just fit the arrowhead in the shaft slot, sling the arrow and the shaft will dislodge after penetration. The shaft becomes recyclable. 8)
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Post by Frank Harrist »

I watch Mythbusters and i like it, but as was pointed out they are technicians and sometimes zoom right past practicalities in their quest for something cool or a bigger explosion. Obviously there was an advantage to having stone points or they would not be found all over the world. Maybe that's why archaeologusts have never asked that stupid question. :roll:
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Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Forum Monk wrote:
[...] I think in the beginning they may have been hand delivered so to speak, on the end of a long stick or spear. [...]
Indeed, they were, Monk. The intermediate stage between spear and arrow: the atlatl

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Post by Digit »

I just love acedemic experts, if the flint arrow head was so unimportant why did our ancestors spend so long making the damn things.
As pointed out above the wound, has to be taken into account.
To kill a large animal at a distance of 50 yrds, for example, would require a massive pull if you intended a fatal shot to the heart or lungs, but a nice jagged wound with a path for blood to escape might be a bit slower but still capable of doing the job.
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Clovis Conjecture and other Point Points

Post by FreeThinker »

I have heard it discussed that it is unclear how clovis points were used. Were they affixed to long spears? Did they intentionally break off inside the target animal so the shards sawed back and forth increasing bleeding? Were they only knife blades? I have heard lots of speculation but no difinative answers. One thing is for sure, as far as projectile points go clovis points are quite large, some even are huge. I have seen studies (can't remember where, sorry) that proved that at least some clovis points' microwear was consistant with plant processing in association with food gathering. Maybe they were general tools, good on a short handle as a knife and on a long shaft as a spear. It is yet a mystery.

As far as lithic points in general, a well made point is sharper than a razor. Hides are very strong (try to punch a sharpened stick made of even a hardwood like oak or hickory through a leather belt or boot) but a sharpend stone can cut right through.

As far as Mythbusters goes:
"Jamie tried to make a chipped stone projectile point"
It took me several years to get good at knapping, and I am only good. I am sure whatever points Jamie came up with were not as sharp as an expertly made lithic point. I guess "tried" is the operative word in that quote.
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Post by Minimalist »

And there would most likely be more than one shooter, firing a volley of arrows into the target.

I don't know if I'd take the shot at the rib cage, though. Too likely to hit a bone and deflect. Why not shoot for the area behind the rib cage or the hamstring muscles? Cripple it and then finish it off with a spear to the throat?

Depends on the power of the bow, I guess. It's a cinch they weren't using English long bows.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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