First Use of the Wheel?
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
It appears the people there had reason. Their calender is more accurate than ours. Their incised graphics are wildly beyond a primitive tribal nature. They built structures very hard to build today. Did they use the multi-ton method of the Egyptions, without wheels? It seems the Inca/Aztec era must have more exploration to put some light on these enimas. Has a cave or grave area been found that is unexplaned? Any data from Egypt that touches on the Mexico contact. Contact from anyone in the world would have the wheel in use and would introduce it. Stange.
As RS points out hilly terrain is only 3% of Europe. But in the case of my location, bottom of a glacial valley, the load that can be drawn is determined by those hills, not the extensive flat areas beyond. In addition there are two streams within a few hundred yards of me and the soil is sticky clay, not suitable for wheels.
For many hundreds of years only the coastal strip had much in the way of trade, mostly by sea, because of the difficult conditions inland, and that with the wheel.
A lot of short trips used a sled.
For many hundreds of years only the coastal strip had much in the way of trade, mostly by sea, because of the difficult conditions inland, and that with the wheel.
A lot of short trips used a sled.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=2N ... tnG=Search
Here is a very good power point presentation on the Native Americans. It may answer a lot of the questions that are being raised here. Just click on the only link on the google page.
Very noteworthy I think is that scientists are trying to figure out how to create "terra preta", the self-sustaining soil developed by the Amazonians.
This stuff could feed the world if we learn to make it easily. No more hunger. Something ironic in that.
Some folks may need to download a power point viewer. Then just click on the screen to turn the page.
Very good presentation imo.
Here is a very good power point presentation on the Native Americans. It may answer a lot of the questions that are being raised here. Just click on the only link on the google page.
Very noteworthy I think is that scientists are trying to figure out how to create "terra preta", the self-sustaining soil developed by the Amazonians.
This stuff could feed the world if we learn to make it easily. No more hunger. Something ironic in that.
Some folks may need to download a power point viewer. Then just click on the screen to turn the page.
Very good presentation imo.
Last edited by Beagle on Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rokcet Scientist
They made a feature film about that: 'Soylent Green'Beagle wrote:
[...] This stuff could feed the world if we learn to make it easily. No more hunger. Something ironic in that.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070723/
Hmmmm, wheels...........are an economic animal.
I think I can say without argument that the unicycle, bicycle and tricycle were unknown in ancient times.
The chariot, as a two-wheeled, horse drawn vehicle of war, seems to predate four wheeled vehicles anywhere you look; Egyptians, Scythians, the early British, China, India.
With the exception of bronze age Scandihoovian wagons (and models) which seem to have been used to transport important dead people to their tumulus and to represent some kind of vehicle for astronomical events.
So I am going to propose a chicken and egg, supply and demand argument here.
OK. Supply. You have a number of people producing saleable goods, who are transporting them by the usual methods, pack animals, humans, to a distribution point (a market) to be redistributed by the usual methods (pack animals, humans). Enter boats, small (rivers) and large (oceans). I'm going to skip the small boats here. The big boats could carry relatively huge quantities of goods a long distance, and make good money at it.
So here comes distribution. We've got the infrastructure to load a boat, we've got the technology to get it to a far off point, but where's the delivery to a set of wildly dispersed markets?
Think of British tin to Rome, or the Hanseatic league, or a dozen other examples.
Enter gummint.
What it takes is a centralized entity which has enough money (taxes) to build and defend a distribution infrasturucture. Yup, the romans come to mind. You have to have enough money to build and sustain a public road system.
Then you have introduced the virus which drives all modren economies.
Roads don't get built unless there is a known river of cash which runs along them.
Baggage wheels come second.
Trivia for the day: the Brtish narrow gauge railway system used exactly the same width between trainwheels as the Roman chariot gauge.
Food for thought. Have fun!
john
I think I can say without argument that the unicycle, bicycle and tricycle were unknown in ancient times.
The chariot, as a two-wheeled, horse drawn vehicle of war, seems to predate four wheeled vehicles anywhere you look; Egyptians, Scythians, the early British, China, India.
With the exception of bronze age Scandihoovian wagons (and models) which seem to have been used to transport important dead people to their tumulus and to represent some kind of vehicle for astronomical events.
So I am going to propose a chicken and egg, supply and demand argument here.
OK. Supply. You have a number of people producing saleable goods, who are transporting them by the usual methods, pack animals, humans, to a distribution point (a market) to be redistributed by the usual methods (pack animals, humans). Enter boats, small (rivers) and large (oceans). I'm going to skip the small boats here. The big boats could carry relatively huge quantities of goods a long distance, and make good money at it.
So here comes distribution. We've got the infrastructure to load a boat, we've got the technology to get it to a far off point, but where's the delivery to a set of wildly dispersed markets?
Think of British tin to Rome, or the Hanseatic league, or a dozen other examples.
Enter gummint.
What it takes is a centralized entity which has enough money (taxes) to build and defend a distribution infrasturucture. Yup, the romans come to mind. You have to have enough money to build and sustain a public road system.
Then you have introduced the virus which drives all modren economies.
Roads don't get built unless there is a known river of cash which runs along them.
Baggage wheels come second.
Trivia for the day: the Brtish narrow gauge railway system used exactly the same width between trainwheels as the Roman chariot gauge.
Food for thought. Have fun!
john
The interesting thing about the wheeled toys in SA is the fact that, so far, no full sized items have been found.
Now every other society that had wheeled toys, that I'm aware of, was making toys based on the full sized article. Wheeled toys without a full size one to base the toy on is rather like toy locomotives before the invention of the full sized one!
Not impossible, but rather unlikely I would think.
Now every other society that had wheeled toys, that I'm aware of, was making toys based on the full sized article. Wheeled toys without a full size one to base the toy on is rather like toy locomotives before the invention of the full sized one!
Not impossible, but rather unlikely I would think.
I think we have gone from wheels to roads here.
But to follow the money argument, I understood the first rail roads were just that. Not for trains, but rails laid along the trail or road from the English coal mines to the nearest harbor. The constant travel turned them into mud pits in wet weather The solution was to put the wagons on rails to spread the weight and let the horses walk in the mud. I think the empty wagons came back on the dirt road because they were lighter, and that made room for the loaded ones on the rails. It saved a lot of time and thus money.
But that was single point to single point.
The paved, flexable, any point to any point road systems we are used to now came about from the Roman need to move troops and equipment on short notice form anywhere to anywhere. It is the same reason the US has it's InterState highway system.
But all three assume the use of the wheel to be pratical for the designed need.
But to follow the money argument, I understood the first rail roads were just that. Not for trains, but rails laid along the trail or road from the English coal mines to the nearest harbor. The constant travel turned them into mud pits in wet weather The solution was to put the wagons on rails to spread the weight and let the horses walk in the mud. I think the empty wagons came back on the dirt road because they were lighter, and that made room for the loaded ones on the rails. It saved a lot of time and thus money.
But that was single point to single point.
The paved, flexable, any point to any point road systems we are used to now came about from the Roman need to move troops and equipment on short notice form anywhere to anywhere. It is the same reason the US has it's InterState highway system.
But all three assume the use of the wheel to be pratical for the designed need.