I have to disagree. I wouldn't call that farming. I'd call that 'pharmacy'. Part & parcel of medicine/magic/doctoring/Jedi-class building. Not for food or trading of foodstuffs. Therefore not agriculture.Mayonaze wrote:
Cultivating medicinal plants should also qualify as farming. You certaintly wouldn't need 1/2 acre of it though.
Trying to fathom farming's origins
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
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Rokcet Scientist
I have to disagree with you RS on farming not being done in NA.
All the so called “Mound Builder” sites through out the Mid West show strong evidence of maze fields in the immediate local area. The St. Louis and Poverty Point areas are the best documented, but they are finding evidence of fields (in the fields) of central Illinois. Same with the “Pueblo” sites in the South West.
I do agree with you on the farmers not being what we now call “Indians.” They were a different people that, for whatever reason, either moved on, died out, or were overtaken and assimilated by the current “Native American” tribes as slaves, wives, etc.
The peoples and places Desoto found and documented during his little walk and the ones post Columbus settlers found were very different. Even if they were the same genetically, they were different socially.
The small pox population decimation Jared describes in “Guns, Germs, and Steel” may have caused a huge social regression, as they are finding evidence of in the Amazon basin, or simply allowed others to move in.
The post Columbus tribes were nomadic, didn’t build with stone, did not bury their dead in monuments, and were afraid of the places were their predecessors had done these things.
All the so called “Mound Builder” sites through out the Mid West show strong evidence of maze fields in the immediate local area. The St. Louis and Poverty Point areas are the best documented, but they are finding evidence of fields (in the fields) of central Illinois. Same with the “Pueblo” sites in the South West.
I do agree with you on the farmers not being what we now call “Indians.” They were a different people that, for whatever reason, either moved on, died out, or were overtaken and assimilated by the current “Native American” tribes as slaves, wives, etc.
The peoples and places Desoto found and documented during his little walk and the ones post Columbus settlers found were very different. Even if they were the same genetically, they were different socially.
The small pox population decimation Jared describes in “Guns, Germs, and Steel” may have caused a huge social regression, as they are finding evidence of in the Amazon basin, or simply allowed others to move in.
The post Columbus tribes were nomadic, didn’t build with stone, did not bury their dead in monuments, and were afraid of the places were their predecessors had done these things.
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Minimalist
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- Location: Arizona
Sorry, Min, but I think you continue to ignore that agriculture in NA had not nearly the scale, nor the effects, it had in the old world.
Irrelevant. The Iroquois grew enough to feed themselves. What more were they supposed to do?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
I've read that before the end of the ice ages, the climate shifted dramatically, quite often in only a few decades, and that by the time hominid interaction could produce more useful varieties, the whole area had to be abandoned, and everyone hadda move.
This is but one of a cluster of reasons agriculture got going in Anatolia 10kya. It may have started at Carcal in the same era, but it looks like an El Nino wiped them out 5kya, and its a good bet that was not the first to do so. Corn had been in production even before Anatolian wheat, but there was no single place where the climate was stable enough long enough to develop civilization.
The closed drainage basin South of Ankara was until a period of chronic drought in the late 7th mil; but by then so many technologies and varieties had been established, among which were oxtrains to carry both the goods and the news, (which were lacking in America), that the whole system has been expanding ever since.
This is but one of a cluster of reasons agriculture got going in Anatolia 10kya. It may have started at Carcal in the same era, but it looks like an El Nino wiped them out 5kya, and its a good bet that was not the first to do so. Corn had been in production even before Anatolian wheat, but there was no single place where the climate was stable enough long enough to develop civilization.
The closed drainage basin South of Ankara was until a period of chronic drought in the late 7th mil; but by then so many technologies and varieties had been established, among which were oxtrains to carry both the goods and the news, (which were lacking in America), that the whole system has been expanding ever since.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
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Rokcet Scientist
"What more were they supposed to do?"Minimalist wrote:Irrelevant. The Iroquois grew enough to feed themselves. What more were they supposed to do?
Sorry, Min, but I think you continue to ignore that agriculture in NA had not nearly the scale, nor the effects, it had in the old world.
How about pulling their fingers out?
Other races/species at that level went on to the next level. They would WORK, Min! Grow a biiiig harvest. Sell/trade/barter the surplus, develop long-distance trade, and writing, build cities, work copper, bronze, and iron.
NA indians didn't do that.
NA indians sat on their asses.
Last edited by Rokcet Scientist on Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
-dig coal, smelt iron, conquer their neighbours, build roads, pollute the environment, you know Min, progress!Other races/species at that level went on to the next level. They would WORK, Min! Grow a biiiig harvest. Sell/trade/barter the surplus, develop long-distance trade, and writing, build cities, work copper, bronze, and iron-.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
Not having a pack animal stronger than a squaw didnt help.
There is cliff art in the Sahara showing cattle herding 20kya. That band of grassland extended all the way east and NE to the Tamir mtns, and the interaction produced a line that was far more manageable than Buffalo. One of my friends was gored by one, basically cause he didnt get it.
The American Steppe was nearly empty before the horse was brought in. Crossing it was daunting; Satellite maps show the trade routes ran across central Asia several millennia ago, and that spread around a lotta good ideas.
Carcal, like Chatal Hoyuk, & the other Anatolian cities had 1500 years of peace. But never again. The Hopi & Navajo pueblos looked a lot like Chatal Hoyuk, and had a reputation of peacefulness, egalitarianism, and respect for women that also looks a lot like what had gone on in SE Europe. And in all these cases, the concentration of so many in a community was a good defense against the predatory hunter tribes.
but the American peaceful tribes were a tiny minority of what went on here. and it speaks loudly of the character of the men to bring warriors up on top of a pyramid to cut out their living hearts. Genghis Khan and the boys were nuts, but nobody was this psychotic.
There are a lotta Cherokee in my neck of Ozark woods, who were forced here in the infamous trail of tears. but today, their most racist attitudes are reserved for other NA tribes who they regard as barbarians. And indeed, Cherokee & Scots/irish freely intermarried here and succeeded, as they still do, in the farming business. They dont care for reservation life, and regard the tribes that do as welfare queens.
And when you look at Bouchard's work with identical twins raised apart, you havta admit that there is a powerful genetic factor on how a man turns out. Most of us here knew who we were at the age of 3, and nothing, and nobody, was gonna change that.
Any look at American history shows where the phrase "too many chiefs and not enuf Indians" comes from, and how the Native Europeans who didnt have nearly the problem, were thereby able to take over.
There is cliff art in the Sahara showing cattle herding 20kya. That band of grassland extended all the way east and NE to the Tamir mtns, and the interaction produced a line that was far more manageable than Buffalo. One of my friends was gored by one, basically cause he didnt get it.
The American Steppe was nearly empty before the horse was brought in. Crossing it was daunting; Satellite maps show the trade routes ran across central Asia several millennia ago, and that spread around a lotta good ideas.
Carcal, like Chatal Hoyuk, & the other Anatolian cities had 1500 years of peace. But never again. The Hopi & Navajo pueblos looked a lot like Chatal Hoyuk, and had a reputation of peacefulness, egalitarianism, and respect for women that also looks a lot like what had gone on in SE Europe. And in all these cases, the concentration of so many in a community was a good defense against the predatory hunter tribes.
but the American peaceful tribes were a tiny minority of what went on here. and it speaks loudly of the character of the men to bring warriors up on top of a pyramid to cut out their living hearts. Genghis Khan and the boys were nuts, but nobody was this psychotic.
There are a lotta Cherokee in my neck of Ozark woods, who were forced here in the infamous trail of tears. but today, their most racist attitudes are reserved for other NA tribes who they regard as barbarians. And indeed, Cherokee & Scots/irish freely intermarried here and succeeded, as they still do, in the farming business. They dont care for reservation life, and regard the tribes that do as welfare queens.
And when you look at Bouchard's work with identical twins raised apart, you havta admit that there is a powerful genetic factor on how a man turns out. Most of us here knew who we were at the age of 3, and nothing, and nobody, was gonna change that.
Any look at American history shows where the phrase "too many chiefs and not enuf Indians" comes from, and how the Native Europeans who didnt have nearly the problem, were thereby able to take over.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
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Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
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- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
Other races/species at that level went on to the next level. They would WORK, Min! Grow a biiiig harvest. Sell/trade/barter the surplus, develop long-distance trade, and writing, build cities, work copper, bronze, and iron.
I guess I look at the ultimate end of all of that and wonder what is so good about it?
More is not always "better."
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
Whether it's advancing years or not I don't know Min but most older people over here think that life has gone down the pan recently, and going by the record numbers of youngsters leaving the country they seem to think so too.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Rokcet Scientist
One is not 'better' or 'worse' than the other. Just a looot further in development. Say, about 10,000 years further!Minimalist wrote:I guess I look at the ultimate end of all of that and wonder what is so good about it?
Other races/species at that level went on to the next level. They would WORK, Min! Grow a biiiig harvest. Sell/trade/barter the surplus, develop long-distance trade, and writing, build cities, work copper, bronze, and iron.
More is not always "better."
Progress stalled 10,000 years ago in NA. Why? Imo, a matter of mentality and (in)competence.
They may be HSS, but they are obviously very different from old world HSS!
My opinion also RS, as I have suggested on this forum, and one of the reasons why I think there is much in the idea of multi regional origins for HSS. I accept OofA for man's origins, but I'm less certain for HSS's.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
This seems to be a case of apples/oranges Min. Europeans always grew food just as everyone else did. Where does this idea of surplus come from?Minimalist wrote:Other races/species at that level went on to the next level. They would WORK, Min! Grow a biiiig harvest. Sell/trade/barter the surplus, develop long-distance trade, and writing, build cities, work copper, bronze, and iron.
I guess I look at the ultimate end of all of that and wonder what is so good about it?
More is not always "better."
There are food granaries all over the Americas, both North and South, but they only got the populace from one harvest to another.
In Europe more grain was produced only in order to make beer, which was not done in NA. After Rome collapsed, Europe descended into a feudal system, where most of the harvest went to feudal lords. It was a form of slavery that seems to be finding a rebirth in much of the world.
There was no disparity in the amount of food grown that I can see. If that's true I'd like to see some evidence. In fact, I don't know of Europeans being able to cultivate any food at all except wheat, which came from the Middle East. The Native Americans, on the other hand, have given us a variety of foods, previously unknown to the Old World.
If anyone knows of another food that Europeans cultivated, please let me know.
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Rokcet Scientist
If they traded/bartered, they had a surplus.Beagle wrote:
This seems to be a case of apples/oranges Min. Europeans always grew food just as everyone else did. Where does this idea of surplus come from?
And vice versa: if they had a surplus, they traded/bartered it.
That maybe so, Beag, but it 'only' pertains to the European 'dark middle ages'. I.o.w. from 500 AD to 1500 AD. That is less than 8% of the entire holocene! Hardly representative for the whole period, methinks. In fact not at all representative of that whole period!
There are food granaries all over the Americas, both North and South, but they only got the populace from one harvest to another.
In Europe more grain was produced only in order to make beer, which was not done in NA. After Rome collapsed, Europe descended into a feudal system, where most of the harvest went to feudal lords. It was a form of slavery that seems to be finding a rebirth in much of the world.
There was no disparity in the amount of food grown that I can see. If that's true I'd like to see some evidence. In fact, I don't know of Europeans being able to cultivate any food at all except wheat, which came from the Middle East. The Native Americans, on the other hand, have given us a variety of foods, previously unknown to the Old World.
If anyone knows of another food that Europeans cultivated, please let me know.
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Gary Svindal
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- Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:41 pm
- Location: Southeast USA
New World Farming Began Around Same Time As Near East's!
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... rming.html
Quote: Ancient squash seeds, peanuts, and cotton balls found in the Peruvian Andes show that farming got started in the New World at about the same time that the first domesticated crops appeared in the Near East.
Cotton Balls? Kind of strange to believe people may have been wearing cotton textiles this early in history.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... rming.html
Quote: Ancient squash seeds, peanuts, and cotton balls found in the Peruvian Andes show that farming got started in the New World at about the same time that the first domesticated crops appeared in the Near East.
Cotton Balls? Kind of strange to believe people may have been wearing cotton textiles this early in history.
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Rokcet Scientist
Maybe the Solutreans brought it?Gary Svindal wrote:
New World Farming Began Around Same Time As Near East's!
But from the moment they 'vanished' into thin air, the further development of agriculture in NA stayed in the lowest possible gear.
And anyway, comparatively, it never achieved even a shadow of the scale or the impact on human development that it did in the old world.
In the old world, agriculture led to civilisation(s):
city building, nation building, long distance trade, the wheel, writing, science, sailing, navigation, war (between political nations), organized religion, copper, bronze and iron working, etc. etc.
It did none of that in the new world!
The agriculture was basically the same. The people were different!