Lifting 45 ton rocks in the stone age

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:41 pm

I think what I object to most about this fellow's idea is that he has put the cart before the horse.

First, you have to explain how you got these stones to the site, over non-existent roads, in a climate which is notorious for keeping everything moist, and THEN you can figure out how to lift them up.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:30 am

The problem is Min that on occasion an idea begins to dominate common sense. A 45t block would need a 45t counter weight if attached to the drum, meaning a min 90t load, and he has yet to suggest how you would move the drum with its 45t conterweight into position over your 45t target stone!

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:28 am

45 tons? The lintels over the inner stones didn't weigh anything near that, I don't think. Heavy yeah, but not that heavy.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:37 am

About half that actually Beag, but that's about right for the inner ones.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:45 am

OK, but even that is heavier than I thought.

Back later today.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:55 am

Digit wrote:
yet to suggest how you would move the drum with its 45t conterweight into position over your 45t target stone!

You pull on ropes with 300 men, or so, to move the wheel. You can control the wheel's movement and position – very precisely if properly prepared ('dry runs' without lintel) – with wedges/brakes. No human lives need be lost.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:28 am

If you can safely move the drum with just the counter weight attached why would you need the counter weight in the first place?

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:52 am

Digit wrote:If you can safely move the drum with just the counter weight attached why would you need the counter weight in the first place?

Maybe I missed something here: who said "you can safely move the drum with just the counter weight attached"?

But in any case: "why would you need the counter weight in the first place?" . . . ummm . . . to counter the weight . . . ?
But of course not in dry runs. Only when the primary weight, the lintel, is attached too.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:31 am

If you can safely move the drum with just the counter weight attached why would you need the counter weight in the first place?

Is what I wrote.

You pull on ropes with 300 men, or so, to move the wheel.

Was your reply.
So if you are manouvering the drum as you suggest you would either be moving it with the counter weight in place or you would have to find a way of attaching the counter weight afterwards.
Which?

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:31 am

Digit wrote:
So if you are manouvering the drum as you suggest you would either be moving it with the counter weight in place or you would have to find a way of attaching the counter weight afterwards.
Which?

Dunno what they did, but I would do the dry runs without lintel or counterweight*, making marks to set up the exact travel of the lintel. Then I'd get the lintel and counterweight in place to do the lifting.

How to get the lintel and counterweight in place in/on the wheel/drum beats me at present. But I'm assuming that could be solved too.

*the preparations to precisely set up the drum/wheel would require 'only' 1 or 2 dozen men, as opposed to a hundred or more to move the laden drum/wheel.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:53 am

I think the dummy runs would be essential RS. What annoys me about the original concept is that the engineer hasn't thought it through, he says about counter weights then doesn't show them in his drawing, and with good reason. There is NO way a matching mass balance could be attached to the drum, and withthe narrow gaps between some of the inner stones no way the concept would work at all on those.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:37 pm

Digit wrote:I think the dummy runs would be essential RS. What annoys me about the original concept is that the engineer hasn't thought it through, he says about counter weights then doesn't show them in his drawing, and with good reason. There is NO way a matching mass balance could be attached to the drum, and withthe narrow gaps between some of the inner stones no way the concept would work at all on those.

There's room/space for counterweights between the flanges, on the opposite side of the axle from the lintel. They might fill a 'box' there rock by rock, so it was a) doable, and could b) be precisely calibrated to the weight of the lintel.

Post by **Minimalist** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:10 pm

Pretty sophisticated stuff for illiterate peasants, wouldn't you say?

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:06 am

Allowing for the width of the drum plus the thickness of timber to support the weight, plus the drum's own supporting structure, there is insufficient room between the drum's cheeks to install any meaningful amount of ballast.
Like the the idea of a box though, but even that idea has its own problems, such as, how would they know when the masses were equal?
Also the engineer who worked this out fails to explain how to get the damn thing out once the lintel is in place!
And remember RS, the gaps in the inner circle are much narrower in places.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:14 am

Time for a few platoons of eager science students, me thinks.