seems like it would have exported some of the technology that suddenly shows up in the Indus & Fertile Crescent. http://discovermagazine.com/2006/nov/an ... rkmenistan
shows a city laid out on a grid pattern with the same kind of hydraulic engineering seen further south.
Central heating in the Indus cities seems kind of strange given how much warmer the climate was. But makes gonzo more sense in Turkmenistan. The website says the culture goes back to 6500 BC. It also mentions the settlement at Gonor, which from other sources I know has a classic Ashram.
At 4000 BP, the earliest example we have of the architectural form.
the Central Asian Civilization...
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
the Central Asian Civilization...
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
I've been reading a little about this new group of cities, which seem to be a new and separate civilization. Sounds pretty exciting, especially as it might connect a lot of dots in the history of the area.
I'm guessing that it will put an end to the Aryan Invasion Theory, once and for all. In any case, they have probably not even begun to scratch the surface of what will eventually be found there.
We're in for a lot of exciting archaeology I think.
Thanks DB.
I'm guessing that it will put an end to the Aryan Invasion Theory, once and for all. In any case, they have probably not even begun to scratch the surface of what will eventually be found there.
We're in for a lot of exciting archaeology I think.
Thanks DB.
Ya Beagle; I've had a lotta fun with the Aryan invasion thing. Based on the extensive ruins & what Mallory has to say, the "Aryans" look like a merchant class, kinda like the Jews, who came into town with their own culture and literature in a time when everyone else was illiterate.
They didnt actually set out to conquer the place, just run a shipping business. But complicating that process is the habit the Steppes have- drought, which drives everyone south looking for greener pastures.
And because the nomads were the Amazons, it kinda freaked people out when a horde of them shows up. We know the usual setup in the Indus and Fertile Crescents, the great king and his goon squads running landed estates with zillions of slaves. Romans had the same problem when Attilla showed up; the slaves see all these nomads and think new management has arrived.
The goon squads cant deal with it, and even the Roman legions were barely able to hold their own. But then, next year, the rains come back so the Amazons go back to the Steppe. Leaving new management. Mongols did the same thing in China. They didnt really like urban life, and lots went back to Mongolia to the cowboy life they loved.
If the warrior classes were not so oppressive, then farmers would have felt they had some investment to protect, and turned any horde around. But the power elites never get it.
They didnt actually set out to conquer the place, just run a shipping business. But complicating that process is the habit the Steppes have- drought, which drives everyone south looking for greener pastures.
And because the nomads were the Amazons, it kinda freaked people out when a horde of them shows up. We know the usual setup in the Indus and Fertile Crescents, the great king and his goon squads running landed estates with zillions of slaves. Romans had the same problem when Attilla showed up; the slaves see all these nomads and think new management has arrived.
The goon squads cant deal with it, and even the Roman legions were barely able to hold their own. But then, next year, the rains come back so the Amazons go back to the Steppe. Leaving new management. Mongols did the same thing in China. They didnt really like urban life, and lots went back to Mongolia to the cowboy life they loved.
If the warrior classes were not so oppressive, then farmers would have felt they had some investment to protect, and turned any horde around. But the power elites never get it.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
So if they were illiterate, how did they manage to produce the writing on the Indus seals (2,000 years earlier than the official date for the Aryan invasion of India, 1200 BC)?daybrown wrote:Ya Beagle; I've had a lotta fun with the Aryan invasion thing. Based on the extensive ruins & what Mallory has to say, the "Aryans" look like a merchant class, kinda like the Jews, who came into town with their own culture and literature in a time when everyone else was illiterate.
Ishtar of Ishtar's Gate and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.
Hi Ishtar. I have a question. The Vedic texts make quite a few references to Soma. Obviously an intoxicating drink, scholars have tried to pinpoint it's origin. The texts refer to " west, in the land of the Soma". Scholars have recently decided that this area was near the border of Afghanistan and Iran.
If true, this new civilization, for lack of a better description, may shed light on what exactly Soma was. Beer is easily made anywhere, so would not be gotten from any place in particular. Do you have any other info or insight into the Soma question?
And as you know, Soma was a favorite drink well over 5,000 yrs. ago.
If true, this new civilization, for lack of a better description, may shed light on what exactly Soma was. Beer is easily made anywhere, so would not be gotten from any place in particular. Do you have any other info or insight into the Soma question?
And as you know, Soma was a favorite drink well over 5,000 yrs. ago.
Hi Beagle
The whole subject of Soma is an interesting one and many Indologists have hypothesised that the movement of Indus tribes across the sub-continent was motivated by the search for Soma. However, it is just another unproven hypothesis.
The Vedics took Soma as part of their shamanic rituals, in the same way that South Americans (Toltecs) took (and still do take) a similar psychotropic herb called ayuasca in order to induce the state of trance. The South American and Vedic shamans were the only ones to use psychotropics for this purpose. The others traditionally used the beat of a drum or the human voice to enter the trance state.
There is no certainty about which herb Soma actually was. Some believe it was flyagaric (the red mushroom with white spots) as it is referred to tin the Rig Veda (the oldest Vedic book) as red, thus:
HYMN LXXXII. Soma Pavamana.
1. EVEN as a King hath Soma, red and tawny Bull, been pressed: the Wondrous One hath bellowed to the kine.
While purified he passes through the filtering fleece to seat him hawk-like on the place that drops with oil.
2. To glory goest thou, Sage with disposing skill, like a groomed steed thou rusbest forward to the prize.
O Soma, be thou gracious, driving off distress: thou goest, clothed in butter, to a robe of state.
3 Parjanya is the Father of the Mighty Bird: on mountains, in earth's centre hath he made his home.
The waters too have flowed, the Sisters, to the kine: he meets the pressing-stones at the beloved rite.
4 Thou givest pleasure as a wife delights her lord. Listen, O Child of Pajri, for to thee I speak.
Amid the holy songs go on that we may live: in time of trouble, Soma, watch thou free from blame.
5 As to the men of old thou camest, Indu unharmed, to strengthen, winning hundreds, thousands,
So now for new felicity flow onward: the waters follow as thy law ordaineth.
There are other references to it being red in other Rig-vedic hymns.
But no-one's really sure which herb or fungus it is.
Hope this helps.
The whole subject of Soma is an interesting one and many Indologists have hypothesised that the movement of Indus tribes across the sub-continent was motivated by the search for Soma. However, it is just another unproven hypothesis.
The Vedics took Soma as part of their shamanic rituals, in the same way that South Americans (Toltecs) took (and still do take) a similar psychotropic herb called ayuasca in order to induce the state of trance. The South American and Vedic shamans were the only ones to use psychotropics for this purpose. The others traditionally used the beat of a drum or the human voice to enter the trance state.
There is no certainty about which herb Soma actually was. Some believe it was flyagaric (the red mushroom with white spots) as it is referred to tin the Rig Veda (the oldest Vedic book) as red, thus:
HYMN LXXXII. Soma Pavamana.
1. EVEN as a King hath Soma, red and tawny Bull, been pressed: the Wondrous One hath bellowed to the kine.
While purified he passes through the filtering fleece to seat him hawk-like on the place that drops with oil.
2. To glory goest thou, Sage with disposing skill, like a groomed steed thou rusbest forward to the prize.
O Soma, be thou gracious, driving off distress: thou goest, clothed in butter, to a robe of state.
3 Parjanya is the Father of the Mighty Bird: on mountains, in earth's centre hath he made his home.
The waters too have flowed, the Sisters, to the kine: he meets the pressing-stones at the beloved rite.
4 Thou givest pleasure as a wife delights her lord. Listen, O Child of Pajri, for to thee I speak.
Amid the holy songs go on that we may live: in time of trouble, Soma, watch thou free from blame.
5 As to the men of old thou camest, Indu unharmed, to strengthen, winning hundreds, thousands,
So now for new felicity flow onward: the waters follow as thy law ordaineth.
There are other references to it being red in other Rig-vedic hymns.
But no-one's really sure which herb or fungus it is.
Hope this helps.
Ishtar of Ishtar's Gate and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.
Thanks Ishtar. Obviously Soma was an important drug/herb/whatever to them. And it could not be obtained or grown just anywhere.
If scholars are right, and this area in this topic thread is the "land of the Soma", then the early Indic civilizations would be major trading partners.
Maybe more.
Within a couple of years, we should get some good discoveries in this area.
If scholars are right, and this area in this topic thread is the "land of the Soma", then the early Indic civilizations would be major trading partners.
Maybe more.
Within a couple of years, we should get some good discoveries in this area.
Wasson, "Persephone's Quest" makes a convincing case that Soma's active ingredient as Amanita Muscaria. But part of the confusion, which he mentions, is that when the original ingredients are unavailable, people will try to make do.
When they do, they sometimes use something that looks similar, or in some other language has a similar sounding name, or something that has a similar effect.
For instance, Wasson finds that Ugarit shamen are still using Soma. But when a man got drunk, their term for it was "beshroomed", cause alcohol was not part of their tradition.
<So if they were illiterate, how did they manage to produce the writing on the Indus seals (2,000 years earlier than the official date for the Aryan invasion of India, 1200 BC)?>
The official date is wrong. It was not an "invasion". Wasson stipulates that in prehistoric times, as now, the drug trade was very active. Since his time, EW Barber, for one, reports on the Ashrams at Gonor & Togoluk Turkmenistan, had bowls of cannibis, opium, and ephedra. Abandoned 2000 BCE.
I dont expect everyone to read my posts, and many cant stand to read much of them. But the Aryan culture predated the domestication of the horse, but when that happened, 6000 years ago in Moldavia, they began to spread across the Steppes.
They were already literate when they left. They didnt set out to conquer; nobody hardly was living there. JP Mallory, "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" notes a few primitive agrarian villages in some river valleys, and later digs reveals some south of the Caspian, but the climate was too prone to drought for the populations to expand.
The Aryans arrive with new, more more mobile technologies, and drive their stock wherever the rain fell. Eventually, some did, on some occasions, arrive in the Fertile Crescent or India, But just like when Attilla crossed the Danube into the Balkans, it wasnt planned as an invasion. It was just refugee nomads looking for pasturage.
And just like the Romans, ran into a corrupt exploitive warrior class controlling a vast mass of slaves with goon squads, that rapidly collapsed when the slave classes saw a chance at new management.
When they do, they sometimes use something that looks similar, or in some other language has a similar sounding name, or something that has a similar effect.
For instance, Wasson finds that Ugarit shamen are still using Soma. But when a man got drunk, their term for it was "beshroomed", cause alcohol was not part of their tradition.
<So if they were illiterate, how did they manage to produce the writing on the Indus seals (2,000 years earlier than the official date for the Aryan invasion of India, 1200 BC)?>
The official date is wrong. It was not an "invasion". Wasson stipulates that in prehistoric times, as now, the drug trade was very active. Since his time, EW Barber, for one, reports on the Ashrams at Gonor & Togoluk Turkmenistan, had bowls of cannibis, opium, and ephedra. Abandoned 2000 BCE.
I dont expect everyone to read my posts, and many cant stand to read much of them. But the Aryan culture predated the domestication of the horse, but when that happened, 6000 years ago in Moldavia, they began to spread across the Steppes.
They were already literate when they left. They didnt set out to conquer; nobody hardly was living there. JP Mallory, "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" notes a few primitive agrarian villages in some river valleys, and later digs reveals some south of the Caspian, but the climate was too prone to drought for the populations to expand.
The Aryans arrive with new, more more mobile technologies, and drive their stock wherever the rain fell. Eventually, some did, on some occasions, arrive in the Fertile Crescent or India, But just like when Attilla crossed the Danube into the Balkans, it wasnt planned as an invasion. It was just refugee nomads looking for pasturage.
And just like the Romans, ran into a corrupt exploitive warrior class controlling a vast mass of slaves with goon squads, that rapidly collapsed when the slave classes saw a chance at new management.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
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Minimalist
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If memory serves....'soma' was the magical drug which had the Japanese drug company going to Kong Island in King Kong v Godzilla. One of the all-time worst movies ever made and a personal favorite of mine.Obviously Soma was an important drug/herb/whatever to them.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 16015
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
Yeah...
It's also the one where a lackey tells a Japanese general " Kong is approaching! " And the general replies......
"King Kong?"
Duh!
It's also the one where a lackey tells a Japanese general " Kong is approaching! " And the general replies......
"King Kong?"
Duh!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
daybrown wrote:Wasson, "Persephone's Quest" makes a convincing case that Soma's active ingredient as Amanita Muscaria.
For those who don't realise, Anamita Muscaria is Flyagaric.
Yep.... and, in fact, I think I'll stop reading them too, 'cos everytime I do, I see RED.daybrown wrote: I dont expect everyone to read my posts, and many cant stand to read much of them.
Talk about pick n' mix theories!Beagle - I can't find the Land of Soma thread, and I'd love to read it. Do you know where it is?
Now that there are 13 pages of topics, maybe it would be good to have a widget on the home page to allow searching by topic?
Alternatively, they could possibly be put in categories perhaps under continents? Just a thought anyway.....
Ishtar of Ishtar's Gate and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.
Slight typo there, Min, but don't worry - I've set it right for you.Minimalist wrote:If memory serves....'soma' was the magical drug which had the Japanese drug company going to Kong Island in King Kong v Godzilla. One of the all-time greatest movies ever made and a personal favorite of mine.Obviously Soma was an important drug/herb/whatever to them.
Not quite Destroy All Monsters, but King Kong v Godzilla is definitely right up there.
