Could Abraham be from the Vedas?

[Ishtar]

I think I may have found a possible derivation of the name of Abraham. But first of all, I should briefly explain the difference between the Judaic/Christian concept of God and the Eastern idea of the Divinity, which is fundamentally different.

The Judaeo/Christian idea of God is of an external remote being that can only be accessed through a middleman, e.g. a priest or Pope or some such.

The Eastern idea of God is the exact opposite and in fact, Jesus gave a hint of this when he said that “the kingdom of heaven is within.” The idea of any Eastern spiritual practice is to reconnect the spiritual aspirant with the true God within, of which Consciousness in its purest form (aham in Sanskrit) is its true nature. Far from one needing an intermediary to do this, the spiritual practitioner is the only one who, either by self-enquiry or meditation, can make this journey. It’s down to each and every individual to do it, should they choose to, and no middlemen are needed as this whole experience exists within each individual as a state of being.

So the Sanskrit name for the pure, unsullied consciousness is “Aham” or the true I. So in this sense, Aham means God and, according to my guru, this is the oldest name for God. Or, as God said to Moses “I am that I am”.

Now, according to Frank Moore Cross in Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic, ‘abr’ (as in Canaanite Habrat and Amorite Ilabrat) is the root word of ‘father’. So that gives us ‘Father of God’ or ‘Father of the pure Consciousness.’

[Minimalist]

Good topic.

1- I always get a little nervous when people try to make too much out of apparently similar sounding words. There are too many variables in spoken language and when you start crossing language groups the problem is simply multiplied. (For example, arguments rage about the use of "C" in Latin, even though it was less than 2,000 years ago. Hard "C" or soft "C"? Caesar = Kee-sar or See-sar? Cicero = Kick-ero or Sis-ero? )

2- That said, there does seem to be something to the idea in this case. One would expect legends to undergo considerable alteration because of time, space, and linguistic differences and we have pretty well locked down that there was trade between Mesopotamia and India. Where goods are moved, ideas move too.

[War Arrow]

The Judaeo/Christian idea of God is of an external remote being that can only be accessed through a middleman, e.g. a priest or Pope or some such.

The Eastern idea of God is the exact opposite and in fact, Jesus gave a hint of this when he said that “the kingdom of heaven is within.” The idea of any Eastern spiritual practice is to reconnect the spiritual aspirant with the true God within, of which Consciousness in its purest form (aham in Sanskrit) is its true nature. Far from one needing an intermediary to do this, the spiritual practitioner is the only one who, either by self-enquiry or meditation, can make this journey. It’s down to each and every individual to do it, should they choose to, and no middlemen are needed as this whole experience exists within each individual as a state of being.

Not wishing to derail this thread (having suddenly become very conscious of the practice) as an aside this is an interesting idea which seems to have (here we go - sorry everyone) admittedly poorly quantified parallels in Mexico. Aside from the vague (and possibly overstated) notion of Native Americans attributing a spiritual dimension to everything, examination of the Gods reveals it's actually very difficult (perhaps even ludicrous) to regard them as percieved and coherent forces with an independent existence. It would seem more practical in fact to regard them as ideas described in conveniently anthropomorphic form, as opposed to literal anthropomorphic "entities" in their own right. As with your eastern conception of God, I think it is too often overlooked that the word has radically different meanings within different cultures.

The Abr + Aham = Abraham equation is, by the way, a fascinating connection. In fact I think that's the first thing I've read of biblical relevance in a long time that's actually juiced a reply out of me. If you'll pardon the expression.

[Ishtar]

Not wishing to derail this thread (having suddenly become very conscious of the practice) as an aside this is an interesting idea which seems to have (here we go - sorry everyone)

ROTFLMAO!! At least it's not minges!

that's actually juiced a reply out of me. If you'll pardon the expression.

Yes, I think you may still be influenced by the imagery in the "minge thread" as it's now become, thanks to DB!

[War Arrow]

Oh Lordy. There's me off to therapy again...

[Ishtar]

Some of the Vedic scholars point to several chapters n the Srimad Bhagavatham about the great patriarch, Yayati, who had six sons. One of these, the youngest was called Puru, and it says in the SB that he ruled Egypt. He ruled over Egypt over the heads of his older brothers (Joseph?)

According to Stephen Knapp, (a Vedic scholar who can make some pretty huge leaps in the dark but there's still a lot to what he says) the descendants of Puru became the pharoahs, and the slaves who built the pyramids were descended from one of the other older brothers, Yadu. So you have the Padavas and the Yadavas, and the Yadavas went on to become the Jews and who always hated the Pharoah Padavas for exploiting them.

(I know that the Jews being in Egypt is not supported by the archaeology, but I don't think it's unsupported either).

Anyway, where I'm trying to get to is this. There is a theory that Yayati (the great patriach) could be Yahweh.

[Forum Monk]

At least it's not minges!

Being American, I had to look that word up.

Now I'm following.

[Ishtar]

At least it's not minges!

Being American, I had to look that word up.

Now I'm following.

I was going to ask you what you called them in America and then I thought "No, God please, let us have at least one minge-free thread!"

[War Arrow]

Anyway, where I'm trying to get to is this. There is a theory that Yayati (the great patriach) could be Yahweh.

Interesting. I'd never considered the possibility that the man upstairs of Christian faith could be traced back to what amounts to a deified ancestor, although that sort of thing is more easily discerned within certain other religions.

By the way, my apologies if I've expanded anyone's vocabulary in an unfortunate direction.

[Minimalist]

"Yahweh" seems to have been a late-comer to the stage.

http://www.bibleorigins.net/YahwehYawUgarit.html

Professors Graves and Patai (1963) on the Hebrews borrowing the epithets and achievements of the pagan gods and ascribing them to Yahweh:

"The titles and attributes of many other Near Eastern deities were successively awarded to Yahweh Elohim...Prophets and Psalmists were as careless about the pagan origins of the religious imagery they borrowed, as priests were about the adaptation of heathen sacrifical rites to God's service. The crucial question was: in whose honour these prophecies and hymns should now be sung, or these rites enacted? If in honour of Yahweh Elohim, not Anath, Baal or Tammuz, all was proper and pious." (p. 28. Robert Graves & Raphael Patai. Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis. New York. Greewich House. 1983 reprint of 1963, 1964 editions)

[Beagle]

Could Abraham have been from the Vedas?
Many people think so.

http://www.viewzone.com/abraham2.html

When we compare the flood stories from Gilgamesh and the Old Testament, we readily acknowledge that they are two versions of the sme story.

If we look at the similarities between Abraham and Brahma, the same thing is evident to many folks. The similarities are also evident in their wives/consorts, Sarai and Sarasvati.

Abraham was originally Abram but had a mid-life name change, as did Brahma, who was originally Bram (I think).

There are quite a few more similarities.

[Ishtar]

Have just come across this quite interesting footnote from Vol 1 of Marco Polo's Travels (translated by Sir Henry Yule).

"Much has been written about the ancient settlement of Jews at Kaifungfu (in China). One of the most interesting papers on the subject is in the Chinese Repository, Vol. XX. It gives the translation of a Chinese Jewish inscription....Here is the passage: 'With respect to the Israelitish religion we find inquiry that its first ancestor, Adam, came originally from India and the during the (period of the) Chau state, the Sacred Writings were already in existence. The sacred writing embodying eternal reason consist of 53 sections. The principles therein contained are very abstruse and the Eternal Reason therein revealed is very mysterious, being treated with the same veneration in Heaven. The founder of the religion is Abraham....."

Stephen Knapp believes that Abraham is actually the Vedic Brahman. He says that Brahma is spelled Abraham in the Jewish tradition. He also says the Talmud comes from Sanskrit: Tal = palm (we know they wrote on palm leaves) and mud = mudra, meaning an inprint or script.

[Minimalist]

When we compare the flood stories from Gilgamesh and the Old Testament, we readily acknowledge that they are two versions of the sme story.

Well....most of us, Beags.

[Ishtar]

Well, it turns out that just about every culture has its Flood Myth.
This was posted by a good friend, Texas Guy on the AA site, when it still existed. I'm sure he won't mind me publishing it here:

Flood myths

Sumerian-The gods had decided to destroy mankind. The god Enlil warned the priest-king Ziusudra ("Long of Life") of the coming flood by speaking to a wall while Ziusudra listened at the side. He was instructed to build a great ship and carry beasts and birds upon it. Violent winds came, and a flood of rain covered the earth for seven days and nights. Then Ziusudra opened a window in the large boat, allowing sunlight to enter, and he prostrated himself before the sun-god Utu. After landing, he sacrificed a sheep and an ox and bowed before Anu and Enlil. For protecting the animals and the seed of mankind, he was granted eternal life and taken to the country of Dilmun, where the sun rises

Egypt-People have become rebellious. Atum said he will destroy all he made and return the earth to the Primordial Water which was its original state. Atum will remain, in the form of a serpent, with Osiris

Babylonian - Three times (every 1200 years), the gods were distressed by the disturbance from human overpopulation. The gods dealt with the problem first by plague, then by famine. Both times, the god Enki advised men to bribe the god causing the problem. The third time, Enlil advised the gods to destroy all humans with a flood, but Enki had Atrahasis build an ark and so escape. Also on the boat were cattle, wild animals and birds, and Atrahasis' family. When the storm came, Atrahasis sealed the door with bitumen and cut the boat's rope. The storm god Adad raged, turning the day black. After the seven-day flood, the gods regretted their action. Atrahasis made an offering to them, at which the gods gathered like flies, and Enki established barren women and stillbirth to avoid the problem in the future

Assyrian- "The gods agreed to cleanse the earth of humanity, but Utnapishtim was warned by the god Ea in a dream. He and some craftsmen built a large boat (one acre in area, seven decks) in a week. He then loaded it with his family, the craftsmen, and "the seed of all living creatures." The waters of the abyss rose up, and it stormed for six days. The waters covered everything but the top of the mountain Nisur, where the boat landed. Seven days later, the waters had receeded enough for the people to emerge. Utnapishtim and his wife were given immortality and lived at the end of the earth. [Sandars] In a Sumerian tradition, the hero was a priest-king named Ziusudra"

and another
"The gods, led by Enlil, agreed to cleanse the earth of an overpopulated humanity, but Utnapishtim was warned by the god Ea in a dream. He and some craftsmen built a large boat (one acre in area, seven decks) in a week. He then loaded it with his family, the craftsmen, and "the seed of all living creatures." The waters of the abyss rose up, and it stormed for six days. Even the gods were frightened by the flood's fury. Upon seeing all the people killed, the gods repented and wept. The waters covered everything but the top of the mountain Nisur, where the boat landed. Seven days later, Utnapishtim released a dove, but it returned finding nowhere else to land. He next returned a sparrow, which also returned, and then a raven, which did not return. Thus he knew the waters had receded enough for the people to emerge. Utnapishtim made a sacrifice to the gods. He and his wife were given immortality and lived at the end of the earth"

Chaldean-The god Chronos in a vision warned Xisuthrus, the tenth king of Babylon, of a flood coming on the fifteenth day of the month of Daesius. The god ordered him to write a history and bury it in Sippara, and told him to build and provision a vessel (5 stadia by 2 stadia) for himself, his friends and relations, and all kinds of animals. Xisuthrus asked where he should sail, and Chronos answered, "to the gods, but first pray for all good things to men." Xisuthrus built a ship five furlongs by two furlongs and loaded it as ordered. After the flood had come and abated somewhat, he sent out some birds, which returned. Later, he tried again, and the birds returned with mud on their feet. On the third trial, the birds didn't return. He saw that land had appeared above the waters, so he parted some seams of his ship, saw the shore, and drove his ship aground in the Corcyraean mountains in Armenia. He disembarked with his wife, daughter, and pilot, and offered sacrifices to the gods. Those four were translated to live with the gods. The others at first were grieved when they could not find the four, but they heard Xisuthrus' voice in the air telling them to be pious and to seek his writings at Sippara. Part of the ship remains to this day, and some people make charms from its bitumen.

accounts attributed to Berosus, the antediluvians were giants who became impious and depraved, except one among them that reverenced the gods and was wise and prudent. His name was Noa, and he dwelt in Syria with his three sons Sem, Japet, Chem, and their wives Tidea, Pandora, Noela, and Noegla. From the stars, he foresaw destruction, and he began building an ark. 78 years after he began building, the oceans, inland seas, and rivers burst forth from beneath, attended by many days of violent rain. The waters overflowed all the mountains, and the human race was drowned except Noa and his family who survived on his ship. The ship came to rest at last on the top of the Gendyae or Mountain. Parts of it still remain, which men take bitumen from to make charms against evil

Greek- "Zeus sends a flood to destroy all of humanity. But Prometheus warns his son, Deucalion, about the coming deluge, and advises him to build an ark",

Batak (Sumatra)
Naga-Padoha, the giant snake on which the earth rests, grew tired of its burden and shook it off into the sea. But the god Batara-Guru caused a mountain to fall into the water to preserve his daughter. From her, the human race is descended. Later, the earth was replaced onto the head of the snake

Hindu-Manu, the first human, found a small fish in his washwater. The fish begged protection from the larger fishes, in return for which it would save Manu from a flood. Manu kept the fish safe until it grew large, and later the fish saved Manu from a deluge. [Kelsen, in Dundes] "The Lord of the Universe," to preserve king Satyavarata from dangers of the depravity of the age, sent him a large ship, and told him to gather himself, medicinal herbs, and pairs of brute animals aboard it to save them from a flood. Seven days later, the three worlds were flooded and darkened. The god appeared in the ocean as an enormous fish, a million leagues long, and Satyavarata tied the ark to its horn

Yuma-Komashtam'ho caused a great rain and started to flood out the large dangerous animals, but he was persuaded that people needed some of the animals for food. He evaporated the waters with a great fire, turning the land to desert in the process

the Quechua-The world wanted to come to an end. A llama, knowing this, was depressed. When its human owner complained that it wouldn't eat, the llama told him of the imminent flood and suggested they go to Villca Coto mountain. They arrived there to find the peak already filled with all kinds of animals. The flood came as soon as they arrived and lasted five days. Afterwards, the man began to multiply once more.

the Choate-In a former time when there were a great many people, the earth sank. Then water began to seep out. It kept rising until it became a flood. Some boys were saved by a white bird; all other people drowned.


Ifugaos (Phillipines) -A great draught dried up all the rivers. The old men suggested digging in a river bed to find the soul of the river. After three days of digging, a great spring gushed forth, but while the Ifugaos celebrated, a storm came, the river kept rising, and the elders advised people to run for the mountains. Only two people made it to safety, a brother and sister, on separate mountains. After six months, the waters receded. The sister later found herself with child and ran away in shame, but the god Maknongan assured her that her shame had no foundation

New Guinea-Lohero and his brother were angry with their neighbors, so they put a human bone into a small stream. Soon a great flood came forth, and the people had to retreat to the highest peaks until the sea receded. Some people descended, and others made their homes on the ridges

Kammu (Thailand)-A brother and sister, warned of the upcoming flood by a mouse, sealed themselves inside a drum, and emerged again after the flood receded. They looked far and wide for mates, but they were the only survivors. A malcoha cuckoo sang to them, "brother and sister should embrace one another." They slept together. After seven years, the child was born as a gourd. A little later, hearing noises from the gourd, they burnt a hole in its shell, and people of the different races came out, first Rumeet, then Kammu, Thai, Westerner, and Chinese

Mayan-The gods used a flood to destroy the wooden people, an early imperfect version of humanity

Shaur ( Andes Mountains)- In a tobacco-induced dream, a hunter was told by the daughter of the water spirit Tsunki to return to a river. He did so, met the woman, followed her to her father's house, and became her husband. When he returned to his home on earth, she took the form of a snake. Once while he was off hunting, though, his two earthly wives tormented her, and she returned to her father. Tsunki, in a rage, flooded the earth, drowning everyone but the hunter and one of his daughters, who escaped to a mountaintop. These two repopulated the world

Flood Myth of the Caddo ( texas/oklahoma and points north east)-Four monsters grew large and powerful until they were high enough to touch the sky. One man heard a voice telling him to plant a hollow reed. He did so, and it quickly grew very big. He, his wife, and pairs of all good animals entered the reed. Waters rose to cover everything but the top of the reed and the heads of the monsters. Turtle destroyed the monsters by digging under them and uprooting them. The waters subsided, and winds dried the earth

The MicMac-Kuloscap defeated the cruel Ice Giants at various contests. Then he stomped on the ground, and foaming water rushed down from the mountains. He sang a song which changed how everyone looks, and the Ice Giants became large fish

this one is almost another version of Pandoras Box

Kwaya (Lake Victoria)-The ocean was once enclosed in a small pot kept by a man and his wife under the roof of their hut to fill their larger pots. The man told his daughter-in-law never to touch it because it contained their sacred ancestors. But she grew curious and touched it. It shattered, and the resulting flood drowned everything

Yoruba (southwest Nigeria)-A god, Ifa, tired of living on earth and went to dwell in the firmament with Obatala. Without his assistance, mankind couldn't interpret the desires of the gods, and one god, Olokun, in a fit of rage, destroyed nearly everybody in a great flood

Vogul ( asia)-After seven years of drought, the Great Woman said to the Great Man that rains had come elsewhere; how should they save themselves. The Great Man counseled the other giants to make boats from cut poplars, anchor them with ropes of willow roots 500 fathoms long, and provide them with seven days of food and with pots of melted butter to grease the ropes. Those who did not make all the preparations perished when the waters came. After seven days, the waters sank. But all plants and animals had perished, even the fish. The survivors, on the brink of starvation, prayed to the great god Numi-târom, who recreated living things.

Yenisey-Ostyak (north central Siberia)-Flood waters rose for seven days. Some people and animals were saved by climbing on floating logs and rafters. A strong north wind blew for seven days and scattered the people, which is why there are now different peoples speaking different languages .

Tuvinian (Soyot) (north of Mongolia)-The giant frog (or turtle) which supported the earth moved, which caused the cosmic ocean to begin flooding the earth. An old man who had guessed something like this would happen built an iron-reinforced raft, boarded it with his family, and was saved. When the waters receded, the raft was left on a high wooded mountain, where, it is said, it remains today. After the flood, Kezer-Tshingis-Kaira-Khan created everything around us. Among other things, he taught people how to make strong liquor

Tibet-Tibet was almost totally inundated, until the god Gya took compassion on the survivors, drew off the waters through Bengal, and sent teachers to civilize the people, who until then had been little better than monkeys. Those people repopulated the land

Hopi-The people repeatedly became distant from Sotuknang, the creator. Twice he destroyed the world (by fire and by cold) and recreated it while the few people who still lived by the laws of creation took shelter underground with the ants. When people became corrupt and warlike a third time, Sotuknang guided the ones who had retained their wisdom to Spider Woman, who cut down giant reeds and sheltered the people in the hollow stems with a little water and food. Sotuknang caused a great flood with rain and waves, and the people floated in their reeds for a long time. Finally, they came to rest on a small piece of land, and Spider Woman unsealed their reeds and pulled them out by the tops of their heads. They still had as much food as they started with. They sent out birds to find more land, but to no avail. They grew a tall reed and climbed it, but they saw only water. But guided by their inner wisdom (which comes from Sotuknang through the door at the top of their head), the people traveled on, using the reeds as canoes. They went northeast, finding progressively larger islands. The last of these was large and fruitful, and people wanted to stay there, but Spider Woman urged them on. They went further northeast, paddling hard as if going uphill, until they came to the Fourth World. The shores were rocky with seemingly no place to land, but by opening the doors at the tops of their head, they found a current that took them to a sandy beach. Sotuknang appeared and told them to look back, and they saw the islands, the last remnants of the Third World, sink into the ocean .

Michoacan (Mexico)-When the flood waters began to rise, a man named Tezpi entered into a great vessel, taking with him his wife and children and diverse seeds and animals. When the waters abated, the man sent out a vulture, but the bird found plenty of corpses to eat and didn't return. Other birds also flew away and didn't return. Finally, he sent out a hummingbird, which returned with a green bough in its beak

Tarahumara (Northern Mexico)-People were once fighting among themselves, and Father God (Tata Dios) sent much rain, drowning everyone. After the flood, God sent three men and three women to repopulate the earth. They planted three kinds of corn which still grow in the country.

Toltec (Mexico)-One of the Tezcatlipocas (sons of the original dual god) transformed himself into the Sun and created the first humans to show up his brothers. The other gods, angry at his audacity, had Quetzalcoatl destroy the sun and the earth, which he did with a flood. The people became fish. This ended the first age. The second, third, and fourth Suns ended, respectively, with the crumbling of the heavens, a rain of fire, and devastating winds.

An absolute tour de force! Thank you Texas Guy!

[Minimalist]

And that only includes cultures which survived long enough for someone to write their tales down.

How many others disappeared without leaving any sort of written record? What if one of the ones that vanished was the right one?