The study of religious or heroic legends and tales. One constant rule of mythology is that whatever happens amongst the gods or other mythical beings was in one sense or another a reflection of events on earth. Recorded myths and legends, perhaps preserved in literature or folklore, have an immediate interest to archaeology in trying to unravel the nature and meaning of ancient events and traditions.
This depends on who was in charge of conducting the census (jews or romans)
Josephus, who is, btw, the only source of this info, is not vague at all. Publius Sulpicius Quirinius undertook the census at the beginning of his governorship of the province of Syria...of which Judaea had recently been made part.
BTW, the fact that Luke treats this incident so importantly is a big part of the reason that "Luke" is dated after Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews was written in 93 AD. Luke seems to have forgotten that Galilee and Judaea were separate countries at the time. By the time Josephus finished writing that was no longer true.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
it is a very important resource and has demonstrated reliability in many archaeological finds.
Um..."some" not "many" and generally the NT has little to support it archaeologically. The OT shows some apparent historical reality after about 650 BC....before that, it is really shaky.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Forum Monk wrote:Neither is the Rig Veda a historical document, but within its poems is a historical context which is valuable. Of course you're not dismissing it entirely, but very few other resources are extant for this particular culture at this particular time, hence its intrinsic value as a historical work.
Its fine art in separating myth from reality at times, and often times mythology has a historical basis. Digit makes a valid point about Paul. Of course one can always dismiss it and say, Paul was completely made up as well.
I don't feel like typing this out again so I'll just post a link to another board. I asked this question to Ken Humphreys who publishes this Jesus Never Existed stuff.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Ishtar wrote:And they used this decepton to control people.
I don't think it started that way, Ishtar. But I agree that by the time of the Constantine, it became about control.
Who was it who said, "lucky for rulers that people don't think..." was it Hitler?
Min wrote:Publius Sulpicius Quirinius undertook the census at the beginning of his governorship of the province of Syria
I'm not disputing who ordered the census. I was questioning the method used to conduct it. If the romans went to the Jews and said I order you to make a census, the jews would have probably done it by ordering the people to their natal villages.
Last edited by Forum Monk on Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Minimalist wrote:Um..."some" not "many" and generally the NT has little to support it archaeologically. The OT shows some apparent historical reality after about 650 BC....before that, it is really shaky.
Fully realizing I am opening myself to pot shots, it is a fact that most early middle eastern archaeology throughout the 18th and 19th centuries was successfully guided by Biblical references. Like I said...its the interpretation which is disputed today.
Minimalist wrote:Um..."some" not "many" and generally the NT has little to support it archaeologically. The OT shows some apparent historical reality after about 650 BC....before that, it is really shaky.
Fully realizing I am opening myself to pot shots, it is a fact that most early middle eastern archaeology throughout the 18th and 19th centuries was successfully guided by Biblical references. Like I said...its the interpretation which is disputed today.
No pot shot needed, you couldn't be more correct. The Albrights and Robinsons and Garstangs set out to "prove" the bible and they interpreted everything they found in that light.
Subsequent research and dating techniques have proven them wrong. In fact, if they had not set the bar so high by claiming that they had proven the bible to be true it would not now need defenders swearing that it still is.
This is a self-inflicted wound.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Forum Monk wrote:
Who was it who said, "lucky for rulers that people don't think..." was it Hitler?
Probably...but it could just as easily be George Bush and his Nazi, sorry Neo Con, henchmen.
“How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.”
Adolf Hitler
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
As regards Judea and Israel being separate Min, they were about as separate as Ohio and Texas. Antipas was a Roman client prince, and I'll hazard a guess that when the Romans said 'jump' his only question was 'how high?'
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
Ishtar wrote:And they used this decepton to control people.
I don't think it started that way, Ishtar. But I agree that by the time of the Constantine, it became about control.
Who was it who said, "lucky for rulers that people don't think..." was it Hitler?
Min wrote:Publius Sulpicius Quirinius undertook the census at the beginning of his governorship of the province of Syria
I'm not disputing who ordered the census. I was questioning the method used to conduct it. If the romans went to the Jews and said I order you to make a census, the jews would have probably done it by ordering the people to their natal villages.
Fine. Here is Josephus' account of Quirinius (or Cyrinius to use Greek spelling) activities. This is the sum total of historical knowledge about this action. Anything else is speculation based on.......on nothing. Josephus says that Quirinius came to Judaea himself...and I'm sure he brought along a few cohorts of bureaucrats to do the grunt work.
Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVIII
CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF THIRTY-TWO YEARS.
FROM THE BANISHMENT OF ARCHELUS TO THE DEPARTURE FROM BABYLON.
CHAPTER 1.
HOW CYRENIUS WAS SENT BY CAESAR TO MAKE A TAXATION OF SYRIA AND JUDEA; AND HOW COPONIUS WAS SENT TO BE PROCURATOR OF JUDEA; CONCERNING JUDAS OF GALILEE AND CONCERNING THE SECTS THAT WERE AMONG THE JEWS.
1. NOW Cyrenius, a Roman senator, and one who had gone through other magistracies, and had passed through them till he had been consul, and one who, on other accounts, was of great dignity, came at this time into Syria, with a few others, being sent by Caesar to he a judge of that nation, and to take an account of their substance. Coponius also, a man of the equestrian order, was sent together with him, to have the supreme power over the Jews. Moreover, Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance, and to dispose of Archelaus's money;
Josephus, as he notes in the rest of the chapter, considers this incident of importance not because of the census but because he attributes to it the rise of the zealot party which subsequently brought down the whole country in the Great Revolt. But, please, read it for yourself.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Trawled up from the deep recesses of my mind? I believe I'm correct in saying that the Jewish authorites would never have dared to order, or run, a census, as I recall from my childhood the counting of the Children of Israel was forbidden. The Romans would probably have dealt with the matter themselve I think.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
Min wrote:Josephus, as he notes in the rest of the chapter, considers this incident of importance not because of the census but because he attributes to it the rise of the zealot party which subsequently brought down the whole country in the Great Revolt. But, please, read it for yourself.
Yep I've read it several times.
Here is the real reason according to Josephus -
to take an account of their substance, and to dispose of Archelaus's money;
He came to plunder. No wonder the Jews revolted. oy!
Digit wrote:As regards Judea and Israel being separate Min, they were about as separate as Ohio and Texas. Antipas was a Roman client prince, and I'll hazard a guess that when the Romans said 'jump' his only question was 'how high?'
The Romans had a curious relationship with the Herodians. They apparently disliked them but that did not stop them from using them at every opportunity. Herod the Great ruled the entire region for over 30 years and managed to remain king despite the changeover from Senatorial rule to Mark Antony to Octavius. Pretty nifty job of changing hats.
They removed Archelaus only because Jews and Samaritans petitioned to be made into a praefecture and get rid of Archelaus. Augustus agreed.
What is less generally know is that in 39 Herod Antipas was booted out so that the entire country could be reunited under Caligula's childhood friend, Herod Agrippa! When he died, in 44, the Romans had no suitable candidate for the region and stepped in themselves and all hell broke loose. That is when they cracked down....hard.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Min wrote:Josephus, as he notes in the rest of the chapter, considers this incident of importance not because of the census but because he attributes to it the rise of the zealot party which subsequently brought down the whole country in the Great Revolt. But, please, read it for yourself.
Yep I've read it several times.
Here is the real reason according to Josephus -
to take an account of their substance, and to dispose of Archelaus's money;
He came to plunder. No wonder the Jews revolted. oy!
Well, the revolution came 60 years later which is a bit of a delayed reaction but.....communications were slower back then!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
I believe I'm correct in saying that the Jewish authorites would never have dared to order, or run, a census, as I recall from my childhood the counting of the Children of Israel was forbidden. The Romans would probably have dealt with the matter themselve I think.