Dark science

rich · Post by **rich** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:45 am

Not sure if any of you have ever seen this - no doubt some have. Friend of mine showed it to me back in 1996-1997 sometime. Who knows - maybe it's where the origin for the theory of dark matter came from

http://tristan.ethereal.net/humor/dark-suckers.html

And they have an updated version too with new stuff added:

http://home.netcom.com/~rogermw/darksucker.html

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:44 am

It looks about as scientific as the dark matter theory - maybe more so!

War Arrow · Post by **War Arrow** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:37 am

Ishtar wrote:It looks about as scientific as the dark matter theory - maybe more so!

And what pray tell would you say characterises the "dark matter theory" as being particularly unscientific, hmmm?

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:10 am

Hmmm.....let me see...could it be something to do with the fact that it cannot be proven to exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter

In astrophysics and cosmology, dark matter is a hypothetical form of matter that does not emit or reflect enough electromagnetic radiation to be observed directly, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter....

So dark suckers is just as believable ...

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:33 am

The existence of dark matter is not really disputed. The controversy centers on how much dark matter exists. See, there is this little problem with our current cosmological model called the "big bang". Its a neat little model except for one problem. The math predicts that a certain amount of mass must be present to fit the observable, that is, enough mass that equates to enough gravity to explain why the universe expanded and hasn't expanded away into complete oblivion. Problem is, we add up all the mass we can see and measure and fall far short of the required amount to a) trigger the big bang in the first place b) prevent the universe from expanding into oblivion.

So - since we can not see the mass and according to the math it is required, the solution is obvious. The mass is there but we can't see it. Becuase its "dark", like space. Ok. Kind of sounds like we're making it up as we go along, but it does make sense....kinda.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:42 am

It looks like this hypothesis has been made up to make all the other theories - gravity, electromagnetism - work.

You can imagine how much that impresses a layman.

And so much of what they say about dark energy - e.g. you can't see it, but it permeates everything - it keeps everything up - is what they used to say about God.

I think they've just renamed God.

War Arrow · Post by **War Arrow** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:50 am

Rather a theory (note use of the theory word) which exists because, in lieu of anything more immediately tangible, it provides a credible explanation for something which quite clearly requires an explanation, than a theory which exists purely because we would really, really, really like it to be true.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:59 am

And I'm sorry Ish but the explaination just given by WA is exactly the same as can Pterodactyls fly? You look at the evidence and construct a workable idea that fits the facts. They had large wings, small lightweight bodies, from that the only logical deduction is that they flew.
This is how science works, for better or for worse.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:05 pm

God has not even made it to "theory" status, so I guess dark matter and flying dinosaurs have more scientific merit than God, which either says something about science or about God - you decide.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:10 pm

Yes, but there's some that would say the gods keeping up everything up is just as credible an explanation for something that quite clearly requires an explanation.

You can't see the gods either - they would say - but you can see their effects.

That's exactly what is said about dark matter.

I'm not trying to persuade you or anyone that the gods exist. I'm just saying that imo, a double standard is in operation if you believe that the theory about dark matter is superior to the theory about the gods - that it has any more validity in science; that it is a scientific theory as opposed to a religious belief.

And scientists would really really really like their theory to be true just as much as mystics would like theirs to be, War Arrow - perhaps even more so because scientists' careers depend on it, and they are going to look utter fools if the whole house of cards comes tumbling down....whereas, the mystics are used to looking like fools!

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:14 pm

Digit wrote:And I'm sorry Ish but the explaination just given by WA is exactly the same as can Pterodactyls fly? You look at the evidence and construct a workable idea that fits the facts. They had large wings, small lightweight bodies, from that the only logical deduction is that they flew.
This is how science works, for better or for worse.

Dig, we have bones for pterodactyls and dinosaurs. You can touch them and smell them and look at them and taste them, if you felt like it. From that you can work out a hypothesis.

You can't do any of that with dark matter because it's intangible.

So it's not like with like.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:22 pm

You can't do any of that with dark matter because it's intangible.

Fair comment. So let's try electricty.

You can not see it, hear it, taste touch or smell it. You judge its existance by its results.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:30 pm

Exactly!!!!

So we're back to dark suckers!

rich · Post by **rich** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:47 pm

Digit wrote:

Fair comment. So let's try electricty.
You can not see it, hear it, taste touch or smell it. You judge its existance by its results.

Sure you can "touch" it - lol. Or should I say it can reach out and touch you - pretty shocking experience tho!

But it can let you know it's there!

rich · Post by **rich** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:51 pm

Oh and lets not forget - you can see electricity - when it sparks across a gap - and as ball lightning!