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I see on tonights BBC News at ten that over 100 Anglican bishops marched through the capital to complain that the governments promise to eradicate poverty by 2015 was falling well behind it's timescale,(might as well call it limescale) isn't it a bit rich, that both the Anglican and catholic bodies are 2 of the richest organisations on this planet, what with their wealth and property assets, and yet they continually hold their hands out for a donation? perhaps thay should lead the governments of this world by example and give some of the dosh back, it's a sound bet that the type of person going to a church will be of a poorer sort but still expected to donate, for my own sins I am a commited atheist, I have only one religion, and that is, you be nice to me and I will be nice to you.

I have'nt posted here before on a polemical subject, hope I have'nt offended anyone, it,s not my intent, what does the panel think?

Captain.

I'm a bit reluctant to engage in debate about (existing) religions, but I do find it hard to feel any particular sympathy for said Bishops - if their demonstration was making some difference to its purported cause fair enough, but somehow I doubt it was.

Greetings Captain!

Your point is excellent and I could not agree more. These religious con-men are supported by government (read tax dollars) through 'faith based initiatives' here in the U.S. President George W. Bush's grants religious charitable social-service groups federal money via the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. So more money to the 'church' and not where it is really needed.

So much for the separation of Church and State.....but then again, we are being lorded over by Alfred E. Newman.

I am a commited atheist, I have only one religion, and that is, you be nice to me and I will be nice to you

Again, agreed.

Thanks for the Reply folks, nice to see that posts get READ, It looks like I'm dealing with free thinking people at last,

Captain.

I see on tonights BBC News at ten that over 100 Anglican bishops marched through the capital to complain that the governments promise to eradicate poverty by 2015

That's what I hate about Anglican bishops. Over here, the preachers would be demonstrating for more government money for them to spread the word of.....whatever word it is they spread.

Those anglicans! Bloody do-gooders!

MichelleH wrote: So much for the separation of Church and State.....but then again, we are being lorded over by Alfred E. Newman.

Don't know how I never noticed this before!

Captain wrote:perhaps thay should lead the governments of this world by example and give some of the dosh back, it's a sound bet that the type of person going to a church will be of a poorer sort but still expected to donate, ...

Have you ever done any research, Captain, in how much the christian churches and the anglican church in particular actually contribute to the welfare of the poor, sick, and underpriviledged of the world?

Forum Monk wrote:

Captain wrote:perhaps thay should lead the governments of this world by example and give some of the dosh back, it's a sound bet that the type of person going to a church will be of a poorer sort but still expected to donate, ...

Have you ever done any research, Captain, in how much the christian churches and the anglican church in particular actually contribute to the welfare of the poor, sick, and underpriviledged of the world?

You are right, Captain. We are freethinkers. But as the above shows, we are a pretty diverse crowd in our beliefs which, although arrived at freely and intelligently and often with great soul searching, are not necessarily atheistic.

So welcome to the pie fight!

Good evening Ishstar and forum monk and others, A little overview of me so that you know your not communicating with a radical here.
I am a 54 year old ginger haired caucasian mechanical engineer, I am blunt in my views, there is no grey area for ME, I speak as I find but do not intend to offend anyone who finds comfort in any religion whatsoever they choose to "follow", Atheism is a religion as well, but it only relies on the individual to enjoy it.
I don't need to be part of a congregation on a sunday morning to be told by someone who is wearing an expensive silk cassock, gold and silver and a lovely ring on his/her finger, that I must be nice to my neighbour, I know this already because my parents taught me that!
One was catholic and the other was Jewish, my mother taught me that,
"It's nice to be important but It's more important to be nice"
This thread opened with the title...."Hypocrisy" I don't like being lectured to by someone of the "don't do as I do, do as I say" ilk,When I look around and see that 90% of the worlds troubles are caused by a doctrine that says be good to your neighbour, I despair, I believe MY faith works the best, as for how much the religous bodies give back to the common man, I don't know, but one things for sure, It's not ENOUGH.

Regards,
Captain.

Captain wrote:"Hypocrisy" I don't like being lectured to by someone of the "don't do as I do, do as I say" ilk,

You and about 99% of the rest of the world, Cap'n.

When I look around and see that 90% of the worlds troubles are caused by a doctrine that says be good to your neighbour, I despair,

I would despair as well, if I thought it true. I see a whole of ill being spread by a philosophy of an "eye for an eye", or fanaticism, or blind loyalty or apathy, etc. I don't see "be good to your neighbor" causing trouble.

I believe MY faith works the best, as for how much the religous bodies give back to the common man, I don't know, but one things for sure, It's not ENOUGH.

Regards,
Captain.

Well since I asked, I thought I better look into it a little myself and its not easy to find. (guess I didnt have the right search terms nor excess time to look deeply)

What I did find is this (applies to USA):
In general church goers donate around 2-3% of their salaries to the church, far below the 10% tithe preached by some churches.

Churches in turn, on average, retain about 85% of what they take in for administration, bill paying, property expenses, etc. with the remaining donated for benevolence. So about 15%.

By contrast, the people give up about 20-33% of their salaries for taxation and overall, the US Federal government uses about 18% of it for social welfare programs. The amazing thing here, is since President Johnson's war on poverty was announced in the sixties, something like $8 trillion (by memory) has been spent on welfare and the poverty rate has pretty remained unchanged the entire time. Most government insiders feel benevolence is best handled by the private sector - i.e. the churches and aide groups.

Best regards,
FM

FM, If i may be so bold, thank you for a very nice and educational reply, I only used the neighbour bit as an example and agree it is a good tenet in life, however, to be told by a person in a pulpit to be pious and humble and hand over your dosh, whilst I get away with murder in the name of the church, is another matter, I apologise for not being more succinct,
btw,
I am glad to have joined this forum to find that folk can differ without falling out with each other, that is what I call civilised.

Regards,
Cap.

Captain wrote: I am glad to have joined this forum to find that folk can differ without falling out with each other, that is what I call civilised.

I don't know. We've had our moments.

Yes, but then you know what they say:

The best part of breakin' up is when you're makin' up .... uh oh, babeeee!

Being a believer in Jesus myself, (youre gonna love this first bit),

I gotta say I am PISSED OFF (yeah I swear! - part of who I am. I can only express myself certain ways sometimes - this is me, NOT hiding behind my religion like many do.) at many christians in general - how many have $300,000 houses and yet ignore the poor man on the street asking for two bucks for a sandwich?

I study the human race to find the answers to these problems. I want to find out why people are greedy, ignorant and sometimes just plain assholes.... so I feel this discussion is relevant. I study archaeology and anthropology to figure out WHY we are the way we are - in particular, the religous aspects of life then and now because there is no greater motivation than the human spirit....

And, I believe the path of Love is where we have to go. Learn to have compassion - but how many christians, all they can talk about is the sin of the person in the next pew, and not try to help them?

Hypocrites, whom Jesus did not tolerate, will be punished in the end. You reap what you sow.

Just so you know I thought this was a great thread for you guys to get to know me on as the beginning involves those who I dislike very much and have less respect for -

HYPOCRITES.

Have a great day. Looking forward to our discussions and learning from you all.

BTW, "Pope" is just my last name. "Lane" is my first... it has nothing to do with Cat'licks Y'all can call me Lane if you like.....

Talk soon. Peace.

-L.

The complaint you have about ignoring the poor and pointing out the faults of others is not exclusively a christian shortcoming. It is common to mankind in general. People are quick to criticise the christian community because, afterall, they preach benevolence and brotherly love, so one expects a higher standard of behavior from them. Unfortunately (or fortunately in some respects) the church is filled with ordinary humans, a cross-section of normal humankind and the label "christian" is often a default choice when one realises he is not Muslem, or Buddahist, or Jewish, or some other common choice.

When is comes to "sinner and saints" as defined in secular terms, atheists, agnostics, and religious people all show the same propensities and in probably the same ratios. The fact is, belonging to the American Geological Society does not make one, american, a geologist or particularly social, and belonging to the christian church does not make one christian in the strictest sense.