Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

[Minimalist]

I suspect that it isn't like shooting the rapids upstream in the Grand Canyon, Rok. Still, I wasn't suggesting a raft.

[Sam Salmon]

If they drifted they would never have made landfall in south America, Min. Neither dead nor alive. Look at the Humboldt Current in that map. (Sufficiently capable) propulsion and steering are absolute prerequisites to cross it. Without those it is totally impossible.

Tell that to the Japanese who drifted from their tiny island to present day Ecuador-something that's been done a number of times

BTW-I fished the Humboldt Current about 15 years ago-it's not omnipotent just big fast rich and changeable.

[Rokcet Scientist]

If they drifted they would never have made landfall in south America, Min. Neither dead nor alive. Look at the Humboldt Current in that map. (Sufficiently capable) propulsion and steering are absolute prerequisites to cross it. Without those it is totally impossible.

Tell that to the Japanese who drifted from their tiny island to present day Ecuador-something that's been done a number of times

BTW-I fished the Humboldt Current about 15 years ago-it's not omnipotent just big fast rich and changeable.

And strong, and wide, and cold, and south-north... A barrier at right angles, deflecting flotsam that's drifting from west to east.

[Sam Salmon]

And strong, and wide, and cold, and south-north... A barrier at right angles, deflecting flotsam that's drifting from west to east.

Unilke you I have actually spent weeks boating on the Humboldt Current it's no barrier at all just a dynamic system that ebbs and flows like any maritime current.

Numerous primitive craft have navigated across the current in modern times (not just Heyerdahl).

You are Welcome to read the Smithsonian article as linked previously and to use Google to further enlighten yourself.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Unilke you I have actually spent weeks boating on the Humboldt Current

'Boating' and 'floating' are entirely different animals, Sam.

it's no barrier at all just a dynamic system that ebbs and flows like any maritime current.

Sure, to someone who can get his next cup of coffee from the mess it is. He wouldn't know the difference. As you demonstrate.

Numerous primitive craft have navigated across the current in modern times (not just Heyerdahl).

From west to east it was never enough to establish a culture. That was flotsam. Not migration.

Thor Heyerdahl – whose Kon-Tiki I read in the sixties, and whom I knew well in the seventies – did it 1) fom east to west, not the other way around, and 2) he willfully sailed/navigated! He had propulsion, steering, modern navigational tools, and modern navigational know-how. He knew where he was and where he wanted to go. He did not aimlessly drift without any conception of where he was or where he wanted to go like Asians caught up in a storm or two would have!

[jw1815]

Sam

Polynesians were more recent. Not to say that someone couldn't have done it before them. But, I suspect people hugged coastlines for a very long time before venturing out into the open seas.

Love Michener's description in Hawaii of the Hawaiians' verbal history about settling the islands and the missionaries chalking it up to heathen mythology.

Island dwelling sailors notice things a lot of us would miss - size and directions of waves, distant mists that suggest land, bird patterns that suggest land, star and cloud formations. Polynesians apparently also chose, intentionally, some storm conditions in order to take advantage of the winds. Took animals (pigs) with them, fresh water, coconuts (for their milk). Had some very sturdy, ocean-going canoes.

The last gap from Easter Island to South America? Looks like someone managed it in fairly recent times (but still prehistoric for America) - in both directions. Yams from South America going westward. Some similarities in language and customs between Pacific islands and coastal Peru. I've got a book on it somewhere that I'd need to look up for more specifics. But some sort of connection seems to have existed between Pacific islanders and South America. All fairly recent compared to Paleolithic arrivals.

For first arrivals? I'm with Min on coastal hugging that led people to South America eventually, after moving along North and Central America. Coastal evidence submerged now. I'd love to see some underwater archaeological searches on the Pacific coasts of North and South America.

[Sam Salmon]

SamPolynesians were more recent. Not to say that someone couldn't have done it before them.

I've visited Polynesia a number of times and fished offshore with Fijians and Tongans in small boats so have some idea of their world view and overall philosophy in terms of viewing the sea as part of their everyday lives-a well equipped fisherman has a knife and pliers with him, most don't neither do they worry about-nor did I when I was with them.

What happens happens.

But, I suspect people hugged coastlines for a very long time before venturing out into the open seas....first arrivals? I'm with Min on coastal hugging that led people to South America eventually, after moving along North and Central America. Coastal evidence submerged now. I'd love to see some underwater archaeological searches on the Pacific coasts of North and South America.

So do I especially since I live and regularly travel the same seas-the coast of BC-those voyagers used-I've posted in the past about some small scale underwater excavations done in the past in the Queen Charlotte Islands.

What I object to is the pig headed denial as posted by one notorious denier-his MO is common enough in cyberspace- the intentional misunderstanding, the ultra narrow minded focus.

[jw1815]

I've posted in the past about some small scale underwater excavations done in the past in the Queen Charlotte Islands.

Sounds interesting. I'll have to google it.

[Minimalist]

I'm with Min on coastal hugging that led people to South America eventually

But what bothers me about that is WHY the need to keep moving south? The coastline simply could not have been that populated at the time in question.

Now....someone crossing from Africa and moving south around the horn would get to Monte Verde long before someone working their way down from Alaska....

Don't mind me. My mind tends to wander late at night.

[jw1815]

But what bothers me about that is WHY the need to keep moving south? The coastline simply could not have been that populated at the time in question.

I’m thinking that coastal living was related to global climate conditions at the time. Can’t claim credit for the idea because a few scientists have suggested it. I’m just applying their findings to Pacific coastal living and migrations (they use that term, too, without implying deliberate exploration – it’s convenient). Glaciations affected climate everywhere. As water was locked up in snow and ice, several large regions of forest became grasslands, and grasslands became desert. Remaining wooded and grassy areas still supported hunting and scavenging, and a few regions actually got wetter (too wet). But with growing glaciations, more people increased their use of fish and shellfish in rivers and on coastlines. In North America, the northern inland areas were glaciated, so habitable areas were confined to the coast, at least until they got far enough south to move inland, probably along rivers. Temperate climates were farther south, in today’s subtropical regions.

Glaciation put pressure on people to move, to adapt to different habitats and to specialize in living styles and technological developments for their regions.

Now....someone crossing from Africa and moving south around the horn would get to Monte Verde long before someone working their way down from Alaska....

I’ve long thought it possible that some people drifted from Africa to South America, maybe in one of those tropical storms off the west African coast that bring hurricanes to America – if they survived the storm, and if climate patterns included tropical storms that long ago in cooler waters.

But, an interesting migrational pattern shows up in global mtDNA studies, related to climate. HSS first appeared in southern and eastern Africa, and started leaving as climates began to get cooler. Cooler grasslands were turning to desert that became barriers for westward travel within the African continent. Migration trends went in two directions first – north to the Mediterranean, North Africa, and Europe and east into what’s now desert areas of the Near East, but were lush vegetation regions at the time. From the Near East, some went northeast, where central Asia had lakes and vegetation. Others followed the coast of India, around the tip, and into eastern Asia.

As global climate cooled further and more regions got drier, more inland people turned to coasts and rivers fed by summer glacial melts to get enough food.

[Rokcet Scientist]

But what bothers me about that is WHY the need to keep moving south?

Food and curiosity.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

[authorhans]

The following is the English Transliteration of the Kariong Glyphs, which contradicts in many ways the common assumption by professional and lay persons around Australia. It was transliterated by Ray Johnson before he died in 2004. I took the liberty of sending a copy of it to the British Museum to have it checked for any errors, because they have the cedebility, that Australian Egyptologist research lacks.

Is this Australia’s oldest written record?

The full English Translation of the Kariong Glyphs.

Thus speaks his Highness the Prince from this wretched place within this land, transported there by ship.
Doing this writing for the Crown of Lower Egypt, according to God’s Words.

The fellaheen call out from this place in this strange land, for Suti.

I, Nefer-Djeseb, Son of King Khufu, The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, beloved of “Ptah” have transported “Suti”

“He (Nefer-Ti-Ru) is kind (and) benevolent, (a) follower (of the) golden-haired God, “Ra-Heru.”
“Two years that I (He ?) make way westwards, I (He, Nefer Ti-Ru) (put) up strong front, praying,
joyful, smiting Insects. His Highness, a Servant of God, He (say’s) God brings the Insects, thus
thine own Fellaheen protect.”

The snake bit twice, all those behind the divine Lord of Khufu, the Lord of the two Adzes , mighty
one of LOWER EGYPT. Not all go back. (we are) marching forward, (we) do not look back.

(We) all damaged the Boat at low tide. Our boat is tied up. The snake caused the death.
(We) gave half an egg (from Medicine) Box (or Chest),
(and) prayed to the Hidden One, for he was struck twice.”
A hard road, we all wept over the body, keeping to that,
which is allowed. “Seated (by) the Side way.” “With concern and deep love, (the) Fellaheen.

Plants wilting, Land dying, is this my lot from the most high God, of the sacred Mer.
The Sun pours down upon (my back), O! Khepera, most High, this is not as the Oracle said.
My Obelisk is overturned, but not broken.

The bandaged one is confined, Here, (in) the Red Earth Region.” Then of Time to grow,
(i.e. Spring),
We walled in with local Stones the entrance to the side chamber.
I counted and impounded the daggers (of the) Fellaheen.

The three doors to Eternity are connected to the rear end behind the bulwark (of the Grave).
A Necklace placed by his side. A Royal Token, signifying Heavens Gift, as from thou…! O Holy
Shining Ones.
Taken across (to) private sanctuary (of this) Tomb.
(Along with) the Silver Dagger, a Royal Token (of the) Great Maker.

Separated from (the city of) “ PENU” (is) the Royal Body (and from) all others. That Regal
Person that came from the House of God, Nefer-ti-ru, the Son of Khufu, King of Upper and
Lower Egypt , who died before, is laid to rest.

He is not of this place. His home is Penu. Return him to his town .
One third of (the) fruits, I myself divided for the burial service.
Hold his Spirit with love, O most High.
Worms in the basket of fruit, going into (him), shall not be.

May he have Life, everlasting. Am I not to go back besides the Waters of the Sacred Mer .
Then clasp him, my Brother’s Spirit to thy side, O Father of the Earth.


This translation shows the deep humanity and sorrow expressed by Nefer-Djeseb about the demise of his brother, the Prince and Priest Nefer-Ti-Ru. But it is sug-gested, because the writings show such deep emotions, that it cannot be compared to the formal writings of the “Books of the Dead” as entered on graves of the Kings, Queens, Princesses or Princes, in order to cheat death in securing an afterlife.

The important facts in this transliteration refer to the Burial Chamber, which is said to be within the 10 meter long hieroglyphic site, which is claimed byAustralian Experts to be white, yet is described as Red Earth Section by Nefer Djeseb. Further reference is made by him to the Side chamber in the Eastern Wall, of which I have the pictures.

[authorhans]

Further to the transliteration of the Kariong Glyphs by Ray Johnson.
Suti, also known as Seth who is portrayed lifesize, at Kariong. None
of the Australian experts (including myself) ever considered it possible,
that the murderer of Osiris would be depicted on a Egyptian Gravesite,
because Seth, as representative God for foreigners is seldom depicted.

It was the General Director of the Cairo Museum, Dia Abou-Ghazi,who
pointed out to Johnson, that it was in fact Suti (because of the longer
snout) and not Anubis as representative of Osiris who was depicted on
the Kariong glyphs, hence providing proof that the "Experts" got it wrong.

Further proof is provided by Nefer Djeseb when he points out that the Grave
of Nefer-Ti-Ru is situated in the Red Earth Section, which is wrongly
described by Experts as being white sandstone. Further proof is provided
when Nefer-Djeseb refers to an underground chamber some 2 meters down
beside the hieroglyphic site, extending nordward for some three meters and
the fact, that the entrance to it was walled in. The western plateau for
hundreds of meters is denuded of any large rock, which were used to make
the Roof plates, 70 cm. thick, on which the visitors to the site stand today.

Underneath the roof plates is a 9 meter (Paul White) long Door to Eternity,
which is made of stone plates, some 1.50 cm. by 70 cm high and with a thickness
of about a foot, in which (Paul White) searched for the mummy of Nefer Ti-Ru,
and where he bemoaned the fact, that he could not find it ( in the Roof rafters)
of the burial site.
Experience proves, that the graves are normally deep down, hence Nefer Djesebs
description that the burial chamber is protected, makes sense.

As the side chaber has a lovest point of 3 meters one must estimate that the burial
chamber is at least 5 meters below the present surface.

Dr. Hans-Dieter von Senff

[authorhans]

To my surprise, I was given the full translation/transliteration of the Kariong Glyphs, which I examined in toto and found acceptable as transliteration. (I.e. it made sense.)(See p. 7 for the whole transliteration) On the advice of a British Egyptologist I sent the same transliteration to the British Museum to get an alternative point of view, because only Ray Johnson was capable of transliterating the same, every other Egyptologist in Australia either failed or let of clouds of steam or bile in order to confuse the issue. Hence as almost every Australian Egyptologist has a biassed opinion. Hence I rather wait on an answer from the British Museum because they have the credibility, that Egyptology in Australia lacks.

Dr. Hans-Dieter von Senff

[authorhans]

It is amazing, how many reasonable Egyptologist and Laypersons lose their temper
if you dare to state the obvious, that the Kariong Glyphs site is exactly, what it is deemed
to be, namely an ancient Egyptian Burial Site, which was errected some 4500 years ago by
Nefer Djeseb for his unlucky brother Nefer Ti-Ru, who was bitten by a snake twice, and
died at Kariong.

Let us consider the archaeological evidence for a moment.

Most visitors are amazed at the engravings, yet these are only a small part of the whole com-
plex, that is the Kariong Glyphs site.
If we ignore the glyphs, we are left with a manmade cleft, which still shows the human work
in the ancient chisel marks on both sides of the wall. On top of the Site is a boulder, whith
the Name Djeseb still visible in it, because the engraving was originally some 3 inches deep,
now almost eroded away.

But have a look under this half Rock

Here we see the fifty ton boulder resting on a manmade sandstone Stilt in order to keep the
Name Djeseb balanced horizontal. And in order to prevent the stone stiltfrom eroding away,
it has been placed right under the middle of the rock, keeping the eroding rain and wind away
from it. Clearly, this man-made structure could not have been build by one or two men, but
would be the product of a multitude of men, who balanced the rock and took the weight off it,
to allow some unlucky persons to build the 60 cm. by 60 cm by 100 cm high stilt, hoping that
their comrades would not drop the lot and squash them.

The Underground evidence, now buried again.

About one meter to the left of Suti (Seth) not Anubis, one finds a gaping hole in the ground. The
Egyptologe and Editor of "Diggings" stood beside this very spot, and repeated the lie given to
him by the Department of National Parks and Wildlife Services, which claimed that this was a
new construction. The trouble is, that Nefer Djeseb wrote in the very Glyphs, that he construc-
ted the same some 4500 years ago. "We walled in the entrance to the Ges with stones from all
around"

Nefer Djeseb told no lies, but Egyptologists do.

Even Ray Johnson, noted Egyptologist from Queensland, dec.2004, never knew how correct his
Transliteration was when he refered to GES. To him it had the meaning of Side or Half. Only
those who have been in the Ges, know that it was a side or half chamber, some three
meters long, that was constructed in the Eastwall. Access to this was the shaft, which the Editor
of "Diggings" (Coldheart) claimed was a "NEW CONSTRUCTION", which was not there before 2000.
A Lie. On the basis of such misconstruction the site was declared a Hoax. (The pictures of the Ges
are in the National Library in Canberra and the Mitchell Library (Sydney) in the Volume "Is the
Kariong Hieroglyphic Site a Hoax." 1984.
The fact is, that there is more archaeological evidence hidden
beneath the ground is never men-tioned. Paul White claimed that students had crafted a 9 meter
long subterean chamber at Kariong.
The fact is that Paul White in his search for the Mummy of Nfer-Ti-Ru got it wrong, because Nefer
Djeseb stated in the Glyphs, that he constructed 3 Doors to Eternity at the rear of the Bulwark of
the Grave. Some 70 cm. below the solid Roofplates, man made, on which visitors walk this day, is
the Door to Eternity, constructed of uneroded sandstone plates, two in a row, a foot thick, finely
dressed. If you don't believe it, go, take a picture underground, it is still possible but difficult and
publish it on the internet.

The Grave of Nefer-Ti-Ru was build of solid Rockplates

like a Cardhouse, after the Body of Nefer Ti-Ru was buried some 5 meters below the Kariong Hiero-
glyphic site, which is correctly identified by the Nefer Djeseb Glyps a being in the Red Earth Section,
ie. the Hieroglyphic Section, even if "Modern Experts" claim that the sandstone is white. Here they lie
to themselves, because they do not recognise the evidence of their own eyes. Despite this, Nefer Djeseb
did not lie when he wrote that " The bandaged one is buried in the RED EARTH SECTION "

Paul White and Rex Gilroy err

when they claim that Nefer Djeseb is buried at Kariong. Nefer Djeseb was the builder of the Grave, after
his brother, the Priest and Prince Nefer Ti-Ru died of Snakebite. The Transliteration of the Glyphs (p.7) of
this site contains the full and unaltered description of the Story of the tragic demise of Nefer Ti-Ru. while
others pay no heed to the fact of the site being dedicated to Suti. Nefer Djeseb stated: "I carried Suti"
Suti being the God of Strangers, hence Anubis was confined to Egypt. Anyone who read the formalized Pyra-
mid Text and other Coffin text can without trouble destinguish the humanist expression of this not formalized
text which is refreshingly human, because it contains no reference to Osiris or Anubis, who will assist in the
resurrection of the dead. Only a simple heartfelt request by Nefer Djeseb, THAT: "May he have Life, everlasting.
Am I not to go back besides the Waters of the Sacred Mer . Then clasp him, my Brother’s Spirit to thy side, O
Father of the Earth. A further error worth mentioning is that both Rex Gilroy and Paul White claim that Nefer
Djeseb carried the "Golden Falcon Standard" (i.e. Horus) before him. Nefer Djeseb is quite clear on this, he sta-
tes: "I, Nefer-Djeseb, Son of King Khufu, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, beloved of “Ptah” have transpor-
ted “Suti” As stated previously, neither Osisis nor Anubis is mentioned in the Glyphs, hence as the grave is
dedicated to SUTI (Seth); Nefer Djeseb maintains International (Egyptian) Law and court etiquette in order not to
upset the religious applecart between the Gods by not mentioning the "Golden Falcon Standard" which represents
Horus, the son of Osiris.

I hope that this archaeological evidence will be investigated by those, who are intersted in the Kariong Glyphs.

Dr. Hans-Dieter von Senff