Well....Whaddaya You Know

[Minimalist]

It looks like HSS wasn't quite as stupid as archaeologists thought, either.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents ... shes_back/

However recent archaeological evidence has already begun to undermine this model pushing back the date of the first appearance of plant agriculture. The best example of this being the archaeological site Ohalo II in Syria where more than 90,000 plant fragments from 23,000 years ago show that wild cereals were being gathered over 10,000 years earlier than previously thought, and before the last glacial maximum (18,000-15,000 years ago).

So it looks like HSS did not sit around in caves belching and farting for 20,000 years after wiping out the Neanderthals.

[Rokcet Scientist]

it looks like HSS did not sit around in caves belching and farting for 20,000 years after wiping out the Neanderthals.

HSS wiped out the Neandertals? Do you know something I don't, Min?

[Minimalist]

Just repeating the Club line, R/S.

They think that after conquering the HN's that HSS also sat on his ass for a 20,000 year kegger before deciding to become farmers.

This latest find suggests that the 'victory party' did not go on nearly so long.

[Cognito]

However recent archaeological evidence has already begun to undermine this model pushing back the date of the first appearance of plant agriculture.

From Archaeo News, 5 August 2004, four years ago:

"Archaeologists have uncovered evidence in Israel that bread was being made at least 22,000 years ago."

http://www.stonepages.com/news/archives/000850.html

I am happy to read that foraging agriculture is being pushed back to at least 23,000 years ago. Sometimes for all of their perceived intelligence I believe mainstream archaeologists are completely clueless (Chris Hardaker excluded, of course).

Like Digit, I hope to live long enough to see the emergence of plant agriculture 40-50,000 years ago. Not the regimented agricultural revolution that we were taught in school books, but the opportunistic collection of wild grains, etc. that allowed for population enhancement.

Question: What was the one, slam dunk advantage that HSS had over HN?

Answer: Population.

The entire Eurasian population of HN has been placed at somewhere between 3,000 and 15,000 individuals maximum. Somewhere not too long before 50,000 years ago the HSS world population was the same number. Then, by 12,000 years ago the world population of HSS had grown to about 4 million while HN had been extinct for about 13,000 years.

How did that incredible population explosion occur across the continents? Better species sex drive? Was this a cultural event having little to do with direct genetic advantage? HSS may have had a more varied and sustainable diet (not relying primarily on meat like HN) with everyone passing that discovery along culturally. Even if HN finally picked up a more balanced diet from rubbing elbows with HSS it was already too late due to the population disparity upon HSS's entry to Europe. HSS didn't embark upon the unknown onesy-twosy folks, they came in bands and groups, consistently communicating with each other. Expect to find the date of opportunistic agriculture doubled in age from 23,000 years ago. You can bet my Digit.

Enter the LGM along with external population pressures and, VOILA! HN Extinction ... along with some possible admixture donated to the new population of HSS. Be sure to watch Neanderthal Code Sunday night at 9pm PST (for all you Yanks).

[Minimalist]

Be sure to watch Neanderthal Code Sunday night at 9pm PST (for all you Yanks).

I'll be recording it and will have it ready to ship out on Monday. Which is good because I'm off for a week in Charleston, SC but I'll have a lap top with me.

BTW, Dig....PM an e-mail address so I can send Neanderthal Code to you.

[Cognito]

... and before the last glacial maximum (18,000-15,000 years ago).

Excuse me for watching the details, but the LGM lasted from 25,000 to 15,000 years ago. See:

http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nerc130k.html

Therefore, what they found in Syria was during the last glacial maximum. As before, I have good reason to believe that opportunistic agriculture will be found to be far older than these dates. Also from the article:

It also shows that useful gene types could have actually taken thousands of years to become stable.

Absolutely. Agriculture wasn't just invented post-LGM all at once by smart people "like us".

Great article, Min. I love the sound of crashing paradigms!

[kbs2244]

Cog:
I would have to say that “the opportunistic collection of wild grains” is not “agriculture.”
It fits the classic definition of a HG existence.
However I can see bread being made from such wild growing grains.
This gathering step would be followed by the watering of such patches of wild growing grains, as the first step towards "gardening" (my word for within the family use) and then on to "agriculture" or “farming.” (those words I define as producing more than you can personally use for the purpose of trade.)

[Ishtar]

Have to agree there, KB.

The word 'agriculture' comes from ('ager', Latin for 'field') and culture is obvious. So - the cultivation of fields, which is more organised than the gathering of wild grains.



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[Cognito]

KB:

I would have to say that “the opportunistic collection of wild grains” is not “agriculture.” It fits the classic definition of a HG existence.
However I can see bread being made from such wild growing grains. This gathering step would be followed by the watering of such patches of wild growing grains, as the first step towards "gardening" (my word for within the family use) and then on to "agriculture" or “farming.” (those words I define as producing more than you can personally use for the purpose of trade.)

Ishtar:

Have to agree there, KB. The word 'agriculture' comes from ('ager', Latin for 'field') and culture is obvious. So - the cultivation of fields, which is more organised than the gathering of wild grains.

Actually, I respectfully disagree with both of you. If agriculture is defined as the "organised cultivation of fields", then I believe what was happening fits that definition, and here is why:

Someone, or a variety of someones, was smart enough to figure out how to collect wild grains and continue that activity to the point of baking bread. Baking bread is not a hallmark of a HG community and requires a decent level of organisation and cooperation. If these people were smart enough to gather grains and bake bread, then I am convinced that they were smart enough to re-seed areas that were conducive to growing wild grains (wet and watered areas as you mentioned, KB). You might call this gardening, but I believe it is more typified as the opportunistic cultivation of fields, ie "agriculture". Organised? Yes. The only source of food? No. Nice to munch on when hunting is poor? Yes. Similar to today's agriculture? No.

Did they collect seeds? My answer would be yes. Although out of timeline context, the recent discovery of fig tree seeds under a house in Jericho dated to 9,400bce is relevant. They just weren't gathering the figs to eat, they were also storing seeds. Further, they could take the seeds with them and cultivate a field wherever they traveled - just add water. We see the above activity in Israel and Syria about 23,000 years ago. How many other areas were doing the same, but we just haven't found the evidence yet?

My original hypothesis was this: It was the opportunistic cultivation and reaping of wild grains that provided HSS with dietary supplements that allowed for population expansion above species baseline constant.

[Ishtar]

Thanks Cog. That's given me an interesting, new perspective.

It also makes more sense - and provides a sort of gradualisation, if that's the right word, between HG and full on agriculture societies.

In addition to reseeding, they may also have come across areas that were naturally abundant with these grasses, thus adding to their diet that way too.

I've seen bread baked in the earth, under a fire.



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[Minimalist]

Someone, or a variety of someones, was smart enough to figure out how to collect wild grains and continue that activity to the point of baking bread. Baking bread is not a hallmark of a HG community and requires a decent level of organisation and cooperation.

Just a random thought here, Cogs. What about the intermediary stage of pastoralism? Herding animals seems to have been a common practice.

I also doubt that once the first HG groups began to experiment with either farming or herding that there was an instantaneous shift. Before you can do something on a big scale you have to do it on a small scale. So while some people were tending the sheep and goats it seems more than probable that others were still hunting and gathering....and fishing or maybe noticing that certain grasses with edible seeds that they had cut down the year before had grown back?

Who can say?

[Ishtar]

How did that incredible population explosion occur across the continents? Better species sex drive? I have always thought this was a cultural event having little to do with direct genetic advantage. HSS had a more varied and sustainable diet (not relying primarily on meat like HN) and everyone was passing that discovery along culturally. Even if HN finally picked up a better diet from rubbing elbows with HSS it was already too late due to the population disparity upon HSS's entry to Europe. HSS didn't embark upon the unknown onesy-twosy folks, they came in bands and groups, consistently communicating with each other. Expect to find the date of opportunistic agriculture doubled in age from 23,000 years ago. You can bet my Digit.

Cogs, you most probably know about the idea of more grasses (alkaline) being better for us than meat and dairy (acid). But this, imo, may only work for HSS. Nowadays, we're all encouraged to have a more alkaline diet. For instance, I recently had some tests at the hospital that found my 'acid markers' to be too high. So I have a quarter treaspoon of green wheat grass with my fruit smoothie in the mornings now, to help to increase the alkalinity of my body.

But some studies, according to Peter D'Adamao, have found that your optimal diet depends on your blood type. Its proponents claim that if you have a blood type that goes back into antiquity (O, I think) then your body is more likely to thrive on meat. But if you are an A, that's a more recent blood type and, therefore, your body needs more vegetables and plant-derived foods like wheat.

There is the usual lot of controversy about this theory, which in my view does not rule it out, and there's more about it in this in Wikipedia article, albeit it thinly sourced and referenced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_diet

* Blood group O is believed by D'Adamo to be the hunter, the earliest human blood group. The diet recommends that this blood group eat a higher protein diet.
* Blood group A is called the cultivator by D'Adamo, who believes it to be a more recently evolved blood type, dating back from the dawn of agriculture. The diet recommends that individuals of blood group A eat a diet emphasizing vegetables and free of red meat, a more vegetarian food intake.
* Blood group B is, according to D'Adamo, the nomad, associated with a strong immune system and a flexible digestive system. The blood type diet claims that people of blood type B are the only ones who can thrive on dairy products.
* Blood group AB, per D'Adamo, the enigma, the most recently evolved type. In terms of dietary needs, his blood type diet treats this group as an intermediate between blood types A and B.

I don't know if this is pseudo-science, but I think that part of the reason my acidity markers went so high was because I had been recently eating more red meat than my usual diet of chicken, fish and lots of vegetables. I am blood group A.




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[kbs2244]

While some of you may grit your teeth at the source of the information, there is evidence of both a HG and a herder existing not only at the same time frame but in the same family.
Genesis tells us that Esau was a hunter while Isaac was a herder.
No mention of farming or gardening though.
That was probably women’s work and not worth mentioning.

[Minimalist]

Indeed. The whole Cain and Abel story is a thinly disguised account of the stresses caused by herding vis-a-vis farming. In that case, because it was written by a herding culture, the herders come off as God's Chosen....or at least Preferred.

[Cognito]

But some studies, according to Peter D'Adamao, have found that your optimal diet depends on your blood type. Its proponents claim that if you have a blood type that goes back into antiquity (O, I think) then your body is more likely to thrive on meat. But if you are an A, that's a more recent blood type and, therefore, your body needs more vegetables and plant-derived foods like wheat.

Ish, I am familiar with dietary pH and it ain't pseudoscience. Being an O universal donor I can assure you that an alkaline diet is still better for overall health. I may have more tolerance than you do for meat, but it still is not an optimal diet all by itself. A significant variety of bacteria thrive better in the human body when it becomes more acidic while an alkaline diet holds them in check (Microbiology 201). I am wrestling with the following:

Assuming that HN and HSS populations were nearly identical sometime between 70,000ya to 47,000ya, why did the HSS population explode while at the same time the HN population remained static?

Read through the following article:

http://www.athenapub.com/8shea1.htm

The following comment from the article is a very powerful statement:

"The most interesting thing about the Levantine record is that until 47,000 BP, there is no objective basis for predicting whether Neanderthals or early modern humans would ultimately be the most successful, and certainly no way to predict that modern humans would permanently replace the Neanderthals."

My answer as to why Neanderthals disappeared is incredibly simple and obvious:

There were far more HSS entering Eurasia than HN, HSS simply outnumbered them in a dramatic way, and pushed them aside.

With the world population of HSS being established as "about 4 million" at 10,000bce, directly after the LGM, I would assume that it was nearly the same number prior to the LGM onset at about 23,000bce since most population experts do not believe there was growth during that interval due to climactic degradation and stress (Source: personal correspondence). Therefore, in a space of less than 30,000 years - in the geological blink of an eye - the population of HSS expanded exponentially, overrunning HN wherever they met them. The follow-on issue then presents itself:

What change occurred in the HSS population to allow for such runaway growth, in apparent contradiction to hominid history for millions of years prior thereto? The HSS rate of successful birth with maturity to adult breeding age increased exponentially across the board almost overnight, everywhere. Why?