Archaeologica.org

Listeros,

New genetic evidence published in Current Biology points to two separate groups arriving in America simultaneously. One group entered from Beringia 15,000 to 17,000 years ago along the ice-free Pacific coastline. Another traversed through an open land corridor to arrive east of the Rocky Mountains. Almost all Native Americans all the way to South America descend from these two groups.

Italian geneticists have found that the haplogroup D4h3 spread along the Pacific Coast all the way to Tierra del Fuego. The other haplogroup, X2a, spread through the ice-free corridor and remained restricted to North America.

Eureka Science News has the story here;
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2009/0 ... c.evidence

A tiny URL;
http://tinyurl.com/8tmrce

Mike Ruggeri


Mike Ruggeri's Pre-Clovis and Clovis World
http://tinyurl.com/2m8725

Breaking Pre-Clovis and Clovis News
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin- ... ggerisPre/

michaelruggeri wrote:Listeros,

New genetic evidence published in Current Biology points to two separate groups arriving in America simultaneously. One group entered from Beringia 15,000 to 17,000 years ago along the ice-free Pacific coastline. Another traversed through an open land corridor to arrive east of the Rocky Mountains. Almost all Native Americans all the way to South America descend from these two groups.

Italian geneticists have found that the haplogroup D4h3 spread along the Pacific Coast all the way to Tierra del Fuego. The other haplogroup, X2a, spread through the ice-free corridor and remained restricted to North America.

Eureka Science News has the story here;
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2009/0 ... c.evidence

A tiny URL;
http://tinyurl.com/8tmrce

Mike Ruggeri


Mike Ruggeri's Pre-Clovis and Clovis World
http://tinyurl.com/2m8725

Breaking Pre-Clovis and Clovis News
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin- ... ggerisPre/

Hi Mike -

About every other week another set of geneticists comes out with another set of observations, which they then over generalize from while ignoring both the archaeological evidence and any other genetic evidence which conflicts with their bold new theory.

My thinking: Y DNA is pretty hopeless for tracking population movements, while mt DNA works much better. C mt DNA starts across Beringia sometime around 45,000 BCE, is ancestral to Iroquoian peoples, and spreads clean to the tip of South America. A mt DNA is ancestral to Siouxian and Algonquin people and crosses sometime after 34,000 BCE, with the Algonquin fishing sea turtle (the Great Turtle) along the coast, and the Siouxian peoples hunting the inland coastal strip.

There are 2 crossings by boat to South America, B and D mt DNA, at times unknown. There is a crossing of an extinct haplogroup from the Sahara River region to South America (Pedra Furada) at 35,000 BCE, and this group spreads north, and is ancestral to what are known as Savanah River People.

X mt DNA haplogroup crosses from Europe ca. 8,350 BCE.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

E.P. Grondine wrote:
Hi Mike -

About every other week another set of geneticists comes out with another set of observations, which they then over generalize from while ignoring both the archaeological evidence and any other genetic evidence which conflicts with their bold new theory.

That's about right and I've almost giving up trying to make heads or tails of these different findings.

Thanks to everyone here for the open exchange of information it's of great help.

EP,

Have any of your claims been published in a peer reviewed journal as the one that was posted by the Italian geneticists in Current Biology?

Can you point me to them?


Mike Ruggeri

E.P. Grondine wrote:
My thinking: Y DNA is pretty hopeless for tracking population movements, while mt DNA works much better.

Why? I see no reason for the difference.

I am still waiting for the peer reviewed journal articles written by geneticists on the pretty fantastic claims made by PE on this subject. I have never seen them.

Mike Ruggeri

michaelruggeri wrote:EP,

Have any of your claims been published in a peer reviewed journal as the one that was posted by the Italian geneticists in Current Biology?

Can you point me to them?

Mike Ruggeri

Short answer: no. Some of this was covered in my book, but much has been discovered since then.

(Since you're here you can buy my book from me for a special low price (pm me for details) or you can read it for free through inter-library loan. What's funny to me is to see parts of my work echoed back to me without attribution.)

In the meantime, start here:
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/World ... psMaps.pdf
with the mt DNA maps.

Then track through the massive impacts that occurred as man was evolving.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

and today's news:

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?Article ... ryId=14095

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

P.E.

But none of the genetic claims you made earlier have been peer reviewed by professional geneticists. I have not seen any claims like this published in any serious professional genetics journal.

But the find published today on the relationship between the Ainu of Japan and the First Americans is a good one.

The "Caucasoid" type features found in the skeleton of Kennewick Man and other early fossils in the Americas have been shown to possibly be related to Ainu peoples of Japan in earlier studies. This genetic study furthers that evidence.

Mike Ruggeri



Mike Ruggeri's Pre-Clovis and Clovis World
http://tinyurl.com/2m8725

Breaking Pre-Clovis and Clovis News
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin- ... ggerisPre/

michaelruggeri wrote:P.E.

But none of the genetic claims you made earlier have been peer reviewed by professional geneticists. I have not seen any claims like this published in any serious professional genetics journal.

Yes - so remember where you first heard the explanation of the distribution of mt DNA haplogroups in the Americas. Based on my previous experience, I expect that geneticists will catch up around 2015 or so.

My initials are E.P.

michaelruggeri wrote:But the find published today on the relationship between the Ainu of Japan and the First Americans is a good one. The "Caucasoid" type features found in the skeleton of Kennewick Man and other early fossils in the Americas have been shown to possibly be related to Ainu peoples of Japan in earlier studies. This genetic study furthers that evidence.

I would not get that hung up on how "caucasoid" anyone's features are, except to the extent that the local people were not descendants. We're all related, its just a question of degree. Unfortunately we don't know from the article what DNA the researcher mapped. We'll see...

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

I just recently read about some Cherokee Indians having their DNA tested and finding that their DNA traced to Ashkenazi Jews...naturally this has created a fire fight...which I am not qualified to decipher. And naturally I didn't save the links, but I suppose it's googlelable (is that a word?) I'd love to hear other opinions.


(ducking...running for cover).

On a lighter note, I was intrigued to discover that GW Bush was related to Vlad the Impaler....

I just recently read about some Cherokee Indians having their DNA tested and finding that their DNA traced to Ashkenazi Jews...naturally this has created a fire fight...which I am not qualified to decipher. And naturally I didn't save the links, but I suppose it's googlelable (is that a word?) I'd love to hear other opinions.

Clubs, I am currently working with mtDNA X2 data provided by a reputable geneticist. What you read was a complete oversimplification of the data. The Most Common Recent Ancestor (MCRA) between any New World population and Near Eastern Jews would be at least 20kya, and nobody is quite certain where that mama lived - the Caucasus area is the most reasonable guestimate at present. Haplogroup mtDNA X2 is used to justify many agendas - my favorite is the Cayce Foundation using this haplogroup as proof of the Atlantis dispersal. For some reason those fleeing the sinking continent shied away from South America entirely - maybe they were avoiding chile peppers?

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1180497

On a lighter note, I was intrigued to discover that GW Bush was related to Vlad the Impaler....

Well, I'm not too surprised. However, Vlad Dracul had a nicer disposition - he wasn't responsible for as many deaths as Dubya.

I was getting the idea that this group of Cherokee were thinking that they were the lost tribe of Israel somehow...head spinning...

ON the other hand I have kept an eye on Gloria Fell's work and how that might pan out with genetic studies. SOMETHING is not quite Clovis first about all of this (heh).

We're all related but I got quite the chuckle out of W and Vlad...I also think Vlad pales in comparison.

I was getting the idea that this group of Cherokee were thinking that they were the lost tribe of Israel somehow...head spinning...

Mormons sponsoring this research?

^ Didn't notice any Mormon links...think it was a band of Indians doing their own genetic tests, can't figure WHY they did it, but did gather they were rather surprised...

I finally remembered where I read about it and found the links:

http://www.cherokeeoflawrencecountytn.o ... elease.pdf

http://www.cherokeeoflawrencecountytn.o ... ction.html