Human Race.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Tue May 12, 2009 2:31 pm

Minimalist wrote: Next step in any hypothesis (which does not involve religion, that is) is to seek evidence to support it.

We already have some:
– HE was a beach comber. Evidenced by large amounts of empty (clam-type) shells associated with them in the seaside caves they sheltered in; so we may assume they were in the area, and perhaps already for hundreds of thousands of years, because there was (and is) a coastline there
– HE did get across, according to that DNA analysis
– some of those volcanoes blew/blow 'frequently' (say once every 1,000 years, average). They always have.

So it was a coincidence waiting to happen for a very long time.
It probably even happened a number of times, only HE didn't know how to get across the water, so he perished. New bands subsequently came in, and combed the beaches for a thousand years, oblivious of the volcanoes. And then one blew again! And HE had another 'opportunity' to ponder how to get across the water. Etc. etc. And one day one band of HE finally licked it. And did get across.
There's your 200 individuals.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue May 12, 2009 2:35 pm

Well RS there's as much non-evidence for boats as there is for that hypothesis so they're about equal.

Roy.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:02 pm

Well, they did get across. And you say they didn't walk. Just suppose you were right: that leaves either boats or flying elephants: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009 ... _wings.php.
And I know what I choose.

So... when was this again? Around 72,000 years BCE, was it? Good enough for me to assume as the birth date of boating, after a fashion, across open water.
Though that of course remained a very slowly evolving craft: it took another 60,000 or 65,000 years to develop the concept of celestial navigation to any useful level for instance.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:05 pm

Can't see any problem there RS, there's as much evidence for flying Elephants as for walking to Australia.

Roy.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:18 pm

Digit wrote:Can't see any problem there RS, there's as much evidence for flying Elephants as for walking to Australia.

I can: you can see where hybrid HE/HS crossed from Papua to Oz on proper sea charts if you vector in 400 feet lower sea levels.

But you can't see the elephant's wings...

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:33 pm

Absolutely RS, but if you cast your memory back several months you will recall that I demonstrated that the Wallace line was north of there and the Sunda Strait has NEVER been shallow enough for wading. In fact the further back in time you go the deeper and wider it was. One day in the future it will close.
Sorry, no contest.

http://www.starfish.ch/dive/Wallacea.html

Roy.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Tue May 12, 2009 4:13 pm

Digit wrote:Absolutely RS, but if you cast your memory back several months you will recall that I demonstrated that the Wallace line was north of there and the Sunda Strait has NEVER been shallow enough for wading. In fact the further back in time you go the deeper and wider it was. One day in the future it will close.
Sorry, no contest.

http://www.starfish.ch/dive/Wallacea.html

Unfortunately, for you, you're talking about another extremely volcanic area. So all bets are off.

But it is a moot point as hybrid HE/HS did get across. However he did it.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue May 12, 2009 4:27 pm

So how exactly would a volcano help someone cross deep water?

Roy.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Tue May 12, 2009 4:39 pm

By merely being there. Volcanoes are responsible for the existence of all those islands. Those islands are the aggregate of many dozens of volcanoes. Without volcanoes: no islands. If a new one pops up in the sea, an island pops up around it. If that new volcano/(is)land is on the edge of Bali or Lombok, or better yet, right in between them, there would be land around it that HE/HS could cross on his way to Oz.
Of course that (is)land is gone now. As many volcanic islands do. They pop up out of sea and can keep growing for years, even centuries. But they also sink back into the ocean (Iceland, early sixties; Krakatoa; recently in the middle of the Pacific; etc. etc.) after a while. Topographically that is an extremely dynamic environment. And today it looks nothing like it did 10,000 years ago. And 20,000 yeras ago it was very different again. And 30,000 years ago very different from that again! And you can go on. The regional topography has changed dramatically in all tha time. And it is still right in the middle of doing so. At least a dozen Indonesian volcanoes erupt each year. Have done as far back as recorded history goes.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue May 12, 2009 4:46 pm

there would be land around it that HE/HS could cross on his way to Oz.

Agreed, and where man could have walked so could other species. No animal larger than man made it across in either direction, as I pointed out to you months ago, perhaps you can explain this time why that is so.
The reason that the line is used as a demarcation is that no other large species crossed it.

Roy.

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue May 12, 2009 5:06 pm

The reason that the line is used as a demarcation is that no other large species crossed it.

Good point.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Tue May 12, 2009 5:06 pm

Digit wrote:
there would be land around it that HE/HS could cross on his way to Oz.
Agreed, and where man could have walked so could other species. No animal larger than man made it across in either direction, as I pointed out to you months ago, perhaps you can explain this time why that is so.
The reason that the line is used as a demarcation is that no other large species crossed it.

'Boats' of course, Roy. After all, they already had had the concept and early working prototypes for 5,000 years or so by that time. Plenty of time to mull it around in their little minds. It's not unreasonable to assume their boating skills had improved a little since Afar. Enough to cross what was then the Lombok Strait.

Any bigger animals that did make it across were eaten. Victim of an acquired taste! ;-P

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Wed May 13, 2009 2:35 am

Any bigger animals that did make it across were eaten. Victim of an acquired taste!

Unlikely unless the land bridge/shallow water arose in front of Man then vanished behind him the animals would have been there already and the Marsupials would have crossed north.
Exactly as with the land bridge between our two countries.

Roy.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:19 am

Digit wrote:
Any bigger animals that did make it across were eaten. Victim of an acquired taste!
Unlikely unless the land bridge/shallow water arose in front of Man then vanished behind him the animals would have been there already and the Marsupials would have crossed north.
Exactly as with the land bridge between our two countries.

Well, then the only possible solution left is of course http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009 ... _wings.php.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:24 am

Or perhaps logic!

Roy.