K-T event did NOT wipe out dinos

[Rokcet Scientist]

No, Rocket Scientist. The situation is far more serious than that. Hell, I'm considered a kook with no supporters. [...] Now perhaps you would prefer to see hundreds of billions of dollars of your science tax money spent on flying a few men to Mars right now, "rocket scientist", or [...]

Thanks for clearing that up, E.P.

BTW, my nick is 'Rokcet Scientist'. Not 'Rocket Scientist'.
Which ought to be self-explanatorious...

Actually, Rokcet Scientist, you're being selective in your quotes.

As you are in your posits, of course.
This board's environment doesn't lend itself to pages long, super-subtle, scientifically nuanced posts, E.P.
Although some try.

And you're missing the point, which is that funding to determine the extent of the impact hazard is inadequate.

I don't think I did, E.P. I didn't comment on it either way.

For example, the work on impact and volcanism which you cite is severely underfunded.

I cited "work on impact and volcanism" that is "severely underfunded"?
I think you must confuse me with someone else.

Now I have to ask, since the extinction of the dinosaurs by impact has nothing to do with New World archaeology, why did you raise the issue here?

Because 1) the lady is from Princeton, because 2) the impact occured in the New World, and because 3) this forum has boards for the "Old World", "New World", and Oz and the rest, but this subject pertains to all the world, afaik, for which this forum does not have a separate board.

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Rocket Scientist -

I suppose that after having been called a "kook" for 10 years, having false accusations made to security officials, having my e-mail broken into, having people impersonate me online, and having words put in my mouth which I never uttered, I'm a bit sensitive.

That said, federal funding of impact research is inadequate. We are still waiting for the USGS cores from the Carolina's. The folks at Sandia just decided they wanted to do the runs, and you'll note Sterling's point:

> Hi, Larry, List,
>
> The Deccan Traps, so it seems, are now believed
> to have started and stopped and started over again,
> in irregular cycles, producing multiple layers. The
> layers date from 62 to 68 million years ago, with
> the peak eruptions at 66 million years ago and
> lasting for as little as 30,000 years. In the strata
> between outbursts, there are fossilized dinosaur
> nests and eggs, making the Traps an unlikely cause
> of their extinction anywhere but locally.
>
> The shock waves of Chicxulub focused through
> the planet have been modeled in the Sandia
> supercomputers. They suggest that impacts can
> start basalt flooding, or make small-scale volcanic
> flows into much bigger ones. The positions of the
> impact and the Deccan 63 million years ago are
> 120 degrees apart, which suggests an impact
> angle of 30 degrees, which -- coincidentally --
> is the same angle derived from studies of the
> remnant crater in the Yucatan.
>
> The Siberian Traps are the world's largest. The
> eruptions lasted about 1,000,000 years. They span
> the Permian-Triassic boundary, just as the Deccan
> Traps span the K-T. Originally the Siberian Traps
> covered 7,000,000 square km, or 5% of the Earth's
> land surface. They span 25 degrees of latitude and
> 60 degrees of longitude. They were, at the time of
> their formation antipodal to Antarctica, where
> suggestions of a very large crater in Wilkes Land
> have been made.
>
> My guess is that focused impact shock makes
> an ordinary large volcanic episode that happens
> to be occurring in the right place become much
> more productive of lava and turn into a basalt
> flood. As major flood-basalt episodes correlate
> very well with extinctions and the more recent
> extinctions correlate very well with extinctions,
> it's asking a lot of coincidence for them to be
> accidental companions. There are no giant craters
> known to not have an extinction hanging around,
> and there are no giant basalt floods known to not
> have an extinction hanging around them as well,
> although there are extinctions without evidence
> of one or the other. (I'm working on the Venn
> diagram...)
>
> Flood basalts are detectable well back into the
> Archean Era; extinctions back to the Cambrian;
> but impact craters' survival for more than a few
> hundred million years is a matter of chance.
> Sudbury and Vredefort were emplaced in ancient
> cratons; that insured their survival. But craters
> are not related to the terrain in any way, being
> extraterrestrially random. And ya can't get more
> random than that.
>
> One can always find the kilometer-thick strata
> of flood basalts. One can find the fossil shifts of
> the last 550-700 million years. To demand that
> clear-cut craters carry the sole burden of proof,
> even in the most ancient cases, is in essence a
> gimmick to shift the argument to evidence known
> to be largely absent.
>
> I'm still working on that Venn diagram...
>
> Sterling K. Webb

[Rokcet Scientist]

funding [...] is inadequate.

It always is and always will be, E.P.!

Illustration: http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewt ... =10&t=2242

And moaning about it won't help, or might even have an adverse effect.
The best m.o. to secure funding is 1) communicating your hypotheses and supporting evidence in an enthusing manner to the proper target audience(s)*, and 2) 'frappez toujours' (never let up).

* which is/are not on this board...

[E.P. Grondine]

It always is and always will be, E.P.!

I don't know about that, RS. In my travels what I noted was that US funding was pretty adequate in the early 1960's.

Of course, everyone has their personal priorities and personal wishes, and sometimes they exceed pubic priorities and wishes.

And moaning about it won't help, or might even have an adverse effect.

Excuse me, RS, but Keller's denial gets funded, while those doing impact research don't.
I want to point out to you that NASA's budget will be around $17,000 million next year.
$5.8 has been earmarked so far for detection, despite the hazard.
At this point I am considering something I have been reluctant to do, which is to attack the Mars Nuts who think that this money is all theirs - what is the point of spending a hunderd billion dollars to fly a few people to Mars? Do you have any reason to do so?

Assuming that their budget remains the same then NASA might spend the funds needed. In other words, an agency in search of a role might suddenly discover a new one.

The best m.o. to secure funding is
1) communicating your hypotheses and supporting evidence in an enthusing manner to the proper target audience(s)*, and
2) 'frappez toujours' (never let up).

Okay, RS, but its hard to be "enthusing" when you're writing about the deaths of millions and millions of people.

[Rokcet Scientist]

[...] I want to point out to you that NASA's budget will be around $17,000 million next year.
$5.8 has been earmarked so far for detection, despite the hazard.

But that $17,000 million is actually getting us somewhere! Demonstrably.
Whereas your $5.8 million isn't! Demonstrably.

At this point I am considering something I have been reluctant to do, which is to attack the Mars Nuts who think that this money is all theirs - what is the point of spending a hunderd billion dollars to fly a few people to Mars? Do you have any reason to do so?

Imo, two major, very humanoïd motivators, E.P.:
1) curiosity. The purest of scientific research motivations, and
2) Lebensraum. Not so pure, but all too real nevertheless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

[...] its hard to be "enthusing" when you're writing about the deaths of millions and millions of people.

That's an all too real horrendous message, E.P. And you know what happens to the messenger!

Better keep your head down if you don't want it chopped off. There are two categories dangerous for you: the people, because they don't want to hear your doomsday prophecy, and Min's "The Club", whose status and livelihood your doomsday prophecy threatens.
I'd be careful.

[E.P. Grondine]

Well, folks, you have the dumb, and then you have the really, really stupid.

[...] I want to point out to you that NASA's budget will be around $17,000 million next year.
$5.8 has been earmarked so far for detection, despite the hazard.

But that $17,000 million is actually getting us somewhere! Demonstrably.
Whereas your $5.8 million isn't! Demonstrably.

Jeesh. You already are someplace, RS: a passenger on spaceship Earth, like some 6 billion other people. Occasionally that spaceship gets hit by cr*p from space and a whole lot of people die. Most of them here now would prefer not to.

At this point I am considering something I have been reluctant to do, which is to attack the Mars Nuts who think that this money is all theirs - what is the point of spending a hundred billion dollars to fly a few people to Mars? Do you have any reason to do so?

Imo, two major, very humanoïd motivators, E.P.:
1) curiosity. The purest of scientific research motivations, and
2) Lebensraum. Not so pure, but all too real nevertheless

Okay, here you go, RS:
1) That curiousity can be satisfied with robotic probes at a couple hundred million $ each
2) MARS IS NOT LIKE THE EARTH = no "lebensraum". Aside from the radiation bath, an atmosphere closer to a vacuum than air, and soil which would dissolve your shoes, the transportation costs to Mars are so high that only a few people could be sent. For some reason you think other folks want to pay for those tickets, so -
3) You want to go to Mars, you pay for it.

[...] its hard to be "enthusing" when you're writing about the deaths of millions and millions of people.

That's an all too real horrendous message, E.P. And you know what happens to the messenger!

Yes, I know exactly. Occasionally he gets told he has written a great book, and that happens more and more often as time passes. He also receives awards and gifts in thanks.

Better keep your head down if you want it chopped off.

Uhhh, thanks for the advice, RS. You haven't noticed it yet, but I'm the one with the tomahawk.

Surprise.

There are two categories dangerous for you: the people, because they don't want to hear your doomsday prophecy, and Min's "The Club", whose status and livelihood your doomsday prophecy threatens.
I'd be careful.

Actually RS, I have no "doomsday prophecy", just irritation with Really Stupid people who waste my time while trying to confuse others. And I don't have any problem with "the people", just the folks who dread me:

1) Mars Nuts, for calling their sh*t
2) The 2012 BS artists, for calling their sh*t,
3) "anthropologists" who don't really know Native America, for calling their sh*t
4) some NASA bureaucrats, for calling their sh*t
5) idiots who pretend to know about impacts, but really don't, for calling their sh*t

It looks to me like you're in categories 1 and 5. Want to try for Category 3?
What the hell does the dinosaur extinction have to do with archaeology?
And why did you bring it up here?

For the rest of you, I hope you were entertained.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Well, folks, you have the dumb, and then you have the really, really stupid.

I don't think insulting is an endearing quality, E.P.

1) That curiousity can be satisfied with robotic probes at a couple hundred million $ each

No, that curiosity will never be satisfied until real people have been there.

2) MARS IS NOT LIKE THE EARTH = no "lebensraum". Aside from the radiation bath, an atmosphere closer to a vacuum than air, and soil which would dissolve your shoes,

I take it you're not familiar with the concept of terraforming, E.P.

the transportation costs to Mars are so high

Now!

that only a few people could be sent.

For some reason you think other folks want to pay for those tickets, so -
3) You want to go to Mars, you pay for it.

Right back at ya: You want impact research, you pay for it.

I have no "doomsday prophecy"

I beg your pardon? Telling people they must expect a cosmological impact that will probably wipe out all life on earth is not a "doomsday prophecy"...?
Wake up and smell the roses, E.P.

, just irritation with Really Stupid people who waste my time while trying to confuse others.

There's that endearing quality again. And you wonder why you(r message) aren't (isn't) popular?

And I don't have any problem with "the people", just the folks who dread me:

1) Mars Nuts, for calling their sh*t
2) The 2012 BS artists, for calling their sh*t,
3) "anthropologists" who don't really know Native America, for calling their sh*t
4) some NASA bureaucrats, for calling their sh*t
5) idiots who pretend to know about impacts, but really don't, for calling their sh*t

And 6) "the people", whose judgment to allocate those budgets you trash...

I.o.w. 99% of society...

It looks to me like you're in categories 1 and 5. Want to try for Category 3?
What the hell does the dinosaur extinction have to do with archaeology?
And why did you bring it up here?

For the rest of you, I hope you were entertained.

I'm not so sure they were, but they certainly have a better picture now of your attitude in this debate.

[E.P. Grondine]

Well, folks, you have the dumb, and then you have the Really Stupid, and this is exactly the kind of cr*p I have put up with for 10 years now, so please excuse my language:

I don't think insulting is an endearing quality, E.P.

Its simply descriptive, Really Stupid, and a fair warning to others who may stumble into your cr*p. I like to simply call people such as yourself Mars Nuts, but in your case let's go with Really Stupid.

1) That curiousity can be satisfied with robotic probes at a couple hundred million $ each[/quote]

No, that curiosity will never be satisfied until real people have been there.

Your curiousity. You pay for it then.

2) MARS IS NOT LIKE THE EARTH = no "lebensraum". Aside from the radiation bath, an atmosphere closer to a vacuum than air, and soil which would dissolve your shoes,

I take it you're not familiar with the concept of terraforming, E.P.

You're speaking cr*p again, Really Stupid. I am intimately familiar with the concepts as well as the nonsense, having covered the REAL space program for many years. Mars lacks a magnetic field, so no radiation protection, even if you manage to liberate volatiles from its crust.

The transportation costs to Mars are so high...

Now!

Yes, now. That will change someday, but that will not change the physics of Mars itself.

that only a few people could be sent.

For some reason you think other folks want to pay for those tickets, so -
3) You want to go to Mars, you pay for it.

Right back at ya: You want impact research, you pay for it.

I did. The difference is that my work and that of other impact researchers involves the public's lives and prosperity. That involving Mars does not.

That that difference is lost on you is why you're Really Stupid.

I have no "doomsday prophecy"

I beg your pardon? Telling people they must expect a cosmological impact that will probably wipe out all life on earth is not a "doomsday prophecy"...?
Wake up and smell the roses, E.P.

That larger and smaller impactors are headed our way is a certainty, BUT we now have the technology to prevent them from hitting.

I don't have any problem with "the people", just the folks who dread me:

1) Mars Nuts, for calling their sh*t
2) The 2012 BS artists, for calling their sh*t,
3) "anthropologists" who don't really know Native America, for calling their sh*t
4) some NASA bureaucrats, for calling their sh*t
5) idiots who pretend to know about impacts, but really don't, for calling their sh*t[/quote]

And "the people", whose judgment to allocate those budgets you trash...

Excuse me, Really Stupid, but your mistaking yourself with the "people", and are spewing yet more B*** S***.

The "people's" representatives, the House and Senate, passed the George Brown Jr Amendment instructing the FORMER NASA Administrator to find this crap before it hits, and he blew them off. Note the FORMER part of that.

There's some other people who are no longer going to be enjoying those $100,000+ GS salaries for giving out tax money to their friends. That includes a certain individual at NSF, who has been funding Keller's rationalizations for several years now.

I'm not so sure they were, but they certainly have a better picture now of your attitude in this debate.

Its not a debate. Its you wasting my time with idiot nonsense while trying to confuse others.

I can see perhaps a small manned research lab on Mars sometime around 2045, when the transportation costs have fallen, and AFTER THE IMPACT HAZARD IS DEALT WITH.

In closing, let me run one fact by you: 90 to 95% of the people living in North America died 13,000 years ago due to impact.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
(The other 13,000 years of North American history)

[Rokcet Scientist]

C'est le ton qui fait la musique, my complimentary friend.

And yours is very off-key.

[E.P. Grondine]

C'est le ton qui fait la musique, my complimentary friend.
And yours is very off-key.

Yeah, there's nothing like someone really deliberately trying to pass off stupidity for knowledge in my field of expertise to put me in a really foul mood.

[Leona Conner]

C'est le ton qui fait la musique, my complimentary friend.
And yours is very off-key.

Yeah, there's nothing like someone really deliberately trying to pass off stupidity for knowledge in my field of expertise to put me in a really foul mood.

And your field of expertise is?

[Rokcet Scientist]

Impactology?

[Leona Conner]

Mythology???

[kbs2244]

This is sad.
We have gone down to name calling?
E.P. has some strong feelings,
and some of us may disagree with him,
but we all deserve more than this.

[Minimalist]

Yes, by all means lets dial this back a bit.

I've read E.P.'s book and while I wasn't convinced it does show that he has studied the issue a great deal, far more than the rest of us I dare say, at least from the point of view of native-American sources.

However, E.P. you have to accept that not everyone is going to be overly impressed by ancient folklore when there are actual, scientific methods to demonstrate that an impact happened.