Archaeologica.org

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic ... per_makers

An archaeological site in southeastern Europe has shown its metal. This ancient settlement contains the oldest securely dated evidence of copper making, from 7,000 years ago, and suggests that copper smelting may been invented in separate parts of Asia and Europe at that time rather than spreading from a single source.

Of course, the above is based on 'known' sites and may well be pushed back further as other discoveries are made.

This is a lot of conjecture based on a pretty small piece of evidence.

My concern is the temps need to get to smelting levels with just wood as a fuel and no evidence of any high draft type furnaces.

I would have to guess that what they found was a piece of “float” copper that may have been heated for easier working.
That can be done at much lower temps.

An archaeological site in southeastern Europe has shown its metal. This ancient settlement contains the oldest securely dated evidence of copper making, from 7,000 years ago, and suggests that copper smelting may been invented in separate parts of Asia and Europe at that time rather than spreading from a single source.

Inventions/developments like that often occur in various places around the same time. Simply because the time is rife and all elements are in place. Like movable metal type, which (in Europe) was simultaneously invented/developed in Germany, The Netherlands, and England around 1450 (the Koreans were 2 centuries earlier).
OTOH: some inventions/developments don't occur in the same era at all. Like the wheel, which was unknown in the pre-Columbian New World, while the Old World seems to have invented/developed it around the turn of the third and second millennia BC, afaik.

Ooops -

Rokcet Scientist wrote: Like the wheel, which was unknown in the pre-Columbian New World, while the Old World seems to have invented/developed it around the turn of the third and second millennia BC, afaik.

Sorry RS, but wrong.

E.P. Grondine wrote:Ooops -

Rokcet Scientist wrote: Like the wheel, which was unknown in the pre-Columbian New World, while the Old World seems to have invented/developed it around the turn of the third and second millennia BC, afaik.

Sorry RS, but wrong.

Glad you pointed that out, E.P. What a wealth of detail! And are you going to substantiate that or are you leading up to another 'you should read "Man and impact in the Americas"' like a broken record?

Rokcet Scientist wrote:

E.P. Grondine wrote:Ooops -

Rokcet Scientist wrote: Like the wheel, which was unknown in the pre-Columbian New World, while the Old World seems to have invented/developed it around the turn of the third and second millennia BC, afaik.

Sorry RS, but wrong.

Glad you pointed that out, E.P. What a wealth of detail! And are you going to substantiate that or are you leading up to another 'you should read "Man and impact in the Americas"' like a broken record?

Google up wheeled toys in the Americas, RS

RS, when you get the chance read through Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond (summary: http://www.mcgoodwin.net/pages/gungermsteel.html). You will finish with an appreciation for why natives in the Americas never bothered to use the wheel. Jared is a long-time Clovis Firster which is annoying, but other than that, he has done an excellent job detailing why Eurasia held a distinct advantage over the Americas at the point of "significant" impact in 1492. If you haven't already, but sure to read 1491 by Charles Mann for a further explanation of what Eurasian diseases did to the Americas.

Just to throw a spanner into the works, does anybody happen to know the temperaure that can be achieved by burning bones?

Roy.

Thanks for the recommendation, Cogs. Much appreciated.

Unfortunately it loses all its traction with this bit of course:

Cognito wrote:Jared is a long-time Clovis Firster

...

R S
Read it anyway.
It is a good, well researched, book.
For sure, Jared is a little behind the curve when it comes to South America.
Just take into account where he is coming from.

Digit wrote:Just to throw a spanner into the works, does anybody happen to know the temperaure that can be achieved by burning bones?

Roy.

What an odd question!
But I would think that you would want to ask someone in the glue industry. That's where they boil bones every day.

And how's your mother-in-law these days?

Still being pursued by Saint George RS!
I asked about burning, as in fire making, what do you think was used in treeless areas? (Walking to America?)
Was the temperature higher than wood? ie suitable for smelting?

Roy.

Pottery-making aside, that's a good question Dig. What fuel did people use in treeless areas? Before the domestication of animals even gathering dung for fires must have been time-consuming.

Perhaps we stuck to the forests for just that reason?

Bones were used as fuel Min, I have even seen a demo on it, but the temperatures were not mentioned. There has to be some flesh/fat on them apparently, but burn they will, I'm not sure what effect the marrow might have either.

Roy.

I checked this out...of course, who knows how valid answers.yahoo is.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 913AAH8GtG