Archaeologica.org

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_s ... _new=44345

MEXICO CITY.- Mexican Archaeologists discovered 3 Clovis projectile heads associated to remains of gomphotheres with an age of at least 12,000 years, in the northern region of the Mexican state of Sonora. The finding is relevant because these are the first evidences in North America of this extinct animal linked to the human species.

The finding opens the possibility of the coexistence of humankind with gomphotheres, animals similar to mammoths, but smaller, in this region of America, which contrasts with theories that declare that this species disappeared 30,000 years ago in this region of America and did not coexist with humans.

The weakest link in all these hypotheses is of course the dating. It's far too imprecise. Giving rise to all kinds of really unsupported speculation.

Besides: I bet Clovis' predecessors – HE, for instance – coexisted in the Americas (albeit on the now submerged fringes, the continental plane) with loads of since obviously extinct fauna species.

In her book on fossil legends, Adrienne Mayor sets out another contact site, well dated by lithcs if nothing else.

HE did not manufacture Clovis points though, R/S. Those only exist in a very narrow band of time and clearly something happened to eliminate them in a relative wink of an eye.

Minimalist wrote:HE did not manufacture Clovis points though, R/S. Those only exist in a very narrow band of time and clearly something happened to eliminate them in a relative wink of an eye.

Since it didn't wipe out the proto indians from Asia, it looks like that something was tied to race, or (sub)species if you will. Something like a genetic Black Death, HIV/AIDS, Marburg, Ebola, or even bird or pig flu infection. We know about pandemics we survived, because we, or at least part of us, survived them (like half of all Europeans survived the Black Death; 100 million died!). Obviously nobody knows about something that killed everybody, because there's of course nobody left to remember it and carry the (oral) history forward.

In a genetic disease scenario like that the elimination of the Clovis culture (people?) could have taken less than, say, 20 years to kill off everybody. Indeed a mere blink of an eye in retrospect.

Another scenario is that the numerically far superior proto indians wiped out the competition good. Race war. Holocaust in America.
Hitler tried that too and almost succeeded.

Since it didn't wipe out the proto indians from Asia

The arguments against an asteroid strike in North America have been less than compelling. That would have left the proto-Indians in Asia alive, too.

Minimalist wrote:

Since it didn't wipe out the proto indians from Asia

The arguments against an asteroid strike in North America have been less than compelling. That would have left the proto-Indians in Asia alive, too.

I'm not saying there wasn't an asteroid (or similar) strike. I'm saying I find it hard to swallow it killed precisely one of two (sub)species, and apparently everybody of that one (sub)species, and not the other (sub)species, nor, as far as we know, any other major fauna species. That must have been one helluva selective asteroid.
I'm not buying it.

Disease or slaughter did Clovis in. Not some Hollywood Armaggedon scene.

it killed precisely one of two (sub)species,

I don't know what you mean. Many larger animals were wiped out aside from mammoths.

Minimalist wrote:

it killed precisely one of two (sub)species,

I don't know what you mean. Many larger animals were wiped out aside from mammoths.

Got anything interesting I could read up on? Like what animals disappeared at the same time? And how they arrived at that conclusion? Aside from mammoths of course, because all mammoths worldwide (except those on the Wrangel and Catalina islands) disappeared around that same time. Just not in a flash. It was 'just' the end of the Würm and violent climatic see-saws rocked the planet's eco systems. Lots of flora and fauna species disappeared forever. And new versions arose. In 'mere' centuries, possibly even just a couple decades. When climatic systems collapse, they quite literally tip over. With far-reaching consequences and leverages.
So, yes, flora and fauna changed dramatically at the beginning of the holocene. And fast too. But not in a flash.
Darwin all the way.

This gives an idea.

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news275.htm

Minimalist wrote:This gives an idea.

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news275.htm

Maybe it's me, but I see no mention of any asteroid crashing into Canada... Let alone of species that went extinct because of it.

YOu have to decide what you want.

First, you need to see that more animals than mammoths went extinct. After that, we can worry about what killed them.

Minimalist wrote:YOu have to decide what you want.

First, you need to see that more animals than mammoths went extinct.

Why ever do you think I don't?

After that, we can worry about what killed them.

That many species aside from mammoths went extinct as the pleistocene turned into the holocene is a given. I'm not contesting that at all. Quite the contrary. However, you seem to be a proponent of the comet/meteor strike hypothesis being the cause. I'm not. I'm not saying there wasn't a comet/meteor strike. I'm saying that there may well have been one, but whether there was or wasn't, it wasn't the catalyst that caused those extinctions. In a flash, no less. Afaic, there's no convincing proof for that theory. So if a comet/meteor strike didn't do it something else must have, right? Something else did: massive violent global climate change. For which there is tons of evidence.

So odds are that Clovis' demise was caused by either the same thing as that which caused all those other species to go extinct at that pivotal time in history: climate collapse. Which probably happened within mere decades, as it did for all the other extinct species. OR by some other cause we are all too familiar with. Like e.g. disease, or genocide. Which are also scenarios that can play out in mere decades.