Archaeologica.org

Dear All,

I thought some of you here might like my latest article. It addresses several issues including advancing a new theoretical definition of Tholos structural mechanics, an examination of a Sardinian Tholos Well Temple in western Bulgaria from the end of the Bronze Age, etc. I hope you enjoy it.

The Garlo Well Temple and Tholos Structural Mechanics

W. Sheppard Baird
Website

Amihai Mazar produced this comparison of Mycenaen and Philistine decorative pottery motifs from the time of the Philistine conquest of the Canaanite coast.



The derivation is pretty clear and I'm not sure where this leaves Sardinia in the mix but the Philistines ( a/k/a Peleset ) seem to have been Hellenic.

Hi Sheppard -

Perhaps remains from Malta may throw some more light on tholos technology.

I would be hesistant to try to define a migration based on an example of one, especially when so much remains unexcavated, and many sites have most likely been lost to later occupation.

Perhaps in some cases earth was shaped, stones laid, and then the earth "form" removed.

Back to the subject of communication by light, have you examined inland light paths or mirror sources?
I think meteorites, iron pyrite, and silver nodules in copper deposits are possible for mirror use.
Have any mirror remains been found, to your knowledge?

PS - min, their speech was known as Palu-ili.

Yes Min, I think the Philistines were most probably Mycenaean-era Greeks.

The dispersion and movement of large groups of people from their homelands in the eastern Mediterranean may have started with the Mycenaean conquest of Troy. If we are to believe the tales described in the Homeric classics of the incredible brutality and slaughter dealt upon the Trojans by the Mycenaeans it's not hard to think that many of the survivors would have started looking elsewhere for a safer environment.

Not long after the Mycenaeans themselves fell to some superior force of unknown cultural composition. They very probably would have experienced the same (or even worse!) brutality and destruction that they had served on the Trojans. The divided Greeks would have been easy pickings for this seaborne military force and the land would have been picked clean of wealth during an extended period of chaos. This would have sent many Greeks scrambling from their homeland and set in motion the Sea People phenomenon for decades to come.

This superior military force was probably primarily composed of the Sardinians along with their allies in the western Mediterranean. Judging by the sheer volume of construction on Sardinia with literally thousands of sometimes very large tholos structures built throughout this period it must have been quite heavily populated and would probably have at some point become more than a match for the Mycenaeans.

Sheppard Baird
Website

If we are to believe the tales described in the Homeric classics of the incredible brutality and slaughter dealt upon the Trojans by the Mycenaeans it's not hard to think that many of the survivors would have started looking elsewhere for a safer environment.

I must say that I don't. Merely epic poetry written several centuries later. However, if there was a Hellenic cultural/ethnic connection between the Sea People and the more civilized Greeks of Homer's era then it is far from impossible that this kind of heroic literature was written to celebrate deeds of their ancestors....and toss in a few divine touches along the way.

Genetic studies have indicated a connection between Asia Minor and Tuscany, though and the Etruscans emerged shortly after the Sea People holocaust was unleashed. It is not unthinkable that scattered groups of refugees bailed out as the Sea People advanced in what must have seemed like a blitzkrieg of modern proportions.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... scans.html

One of the roots of Roman civilisation has been traced by scientists to western Turkey, confirming an account given more than 2,000 years ago.

So never say never and there is also no reason to doubt that Minoan seafarers could have sailed west as well as east if they wished during the peak period of their civilization.

Hold it right there, the both of you.

"Mycenean" Greeks were Achaeans, LB a2-a-ja, and I forget the Hittite for them, but it is easy enough to find. No myths, but contemporary documents, min.

As the mention of Palu-ili comes from what is today's Turkey, it is no surprise that there is a resemblence in motifs, and thanks for that comparison, min.

The earlier PIE substrate stretched throughout Europe, and certainly survived in the far west. So perhaps what we're seeing with the Etruscans is cultural diffusion to an ethnically similar people.

Sheppard, min, at some time, 3 Oc 1 Cimi specifically, there was an impact in the Atlantic that wiped out the Atlantic coast traders. Right in the middle of the "Sea Peoples" migrations.

What brought about all these population movements is unclear.
Particularly of the island peoples. Why would they move east?

Hi Min,

As for your comment on the Homeric classics each to their own. I believe they reflect some measure of truth from the distant past. What that measure is I don't know but it's very clear from the archaeology that both Mycenae and Troy were thoroughly destroyed during this period. Sounds like a good prescription for a lot of displaced and homeless Greeks and Trojans to me.

Not sure why you brought up the genetic studies because I've thought the Sardinians and their close neighbors the Etruscans were originally from the Aegean for some years now. Might want to give these articles a look when you get a chance:

The Early Minoan Colonization of Spain

The Origin of the Sea Peoples

Thanks much for the thoughts.

W. Sheppard Baird
Website

Not sure why you brought up the genetic studies

Mainly because the connection between Asia Minor and the Etruscans was regarded as ancient fiction ( recall Livy begins his History of Rome with the tale of Aeneas escaping from "Troy.") Yet, genetics suggests that this bit of folklore has some actual fact behind it.

While I certainly do not think that the "Trojan War" ( replete with its interference by jealous gods and goddesses) happened we can no longer dismiss the probability that refugees from roughly the area in question escaped the Sea People onslaught and headed to Italy and perhaps other places.

As for everything being driven by one "impact event" or another I would need to see some evidence of such an impact. A pretty convincing case was made a few years ago for an earthquake swarm in that highly seismically active region starting people on the move.

min, There was also speculation about comet dust veils causing climate collapse.
And mention of meteor showers in Homer - but then that's not a primary source, anymore than the OT.

So that is still simply speculation.

What I need to caution both of you of is that there was both diffusion and migration.
It is tough to sort out.

One curious thing is that the "invasion" happened shortly after the Hittite-Egyptian peace treaty.

I suppose that what is going to finally clarify the entire situation is the recovery of more contemporary text records.

My guess is that the Spanish coastal excavations will give us the impact mega-tsunami data, as well as foreign texts, and perhaps native ones. Aside from that, I hope that burials on Thera yield texts. Or perhaps palace excavations in today's Israel.

One cannot ask for more than that, E.P. If there is evidence, textual or otherwise, which sustains an impact conclusion it will not be found by people who aren't out there looking.

Samra wrote:Hi Min,

As for your comment on the Homeric classics each to their own. I believe they reflect some measure of truth from the distant past. What that measure is I don't know but it's very clear from the archaeology that both Mycenae and Troy were thoroughly destroyed during this period. Sounds like a good prescription for a lot of displaced and homeless Greeks and Trojans to me.

Not sure why you brought up the genetic studies because I've thought the Sardinians and their close neighbors the Etruscans were originally from the Aegean for some years now. Might want to give these articles a look when you get a chance:

The Early Minoan Colonization of Spain

The Origin of the Sea Peoples

Thanks much for the thoughts.

W. Sheppard Baird
Website

Hi Sheppard -

Ilios = Wilusa (Hittite)

The relationship between all of these groups is unclear, as is a triggering mechanism for the social upheaval.

The best available chronology from contemporary documents is here:
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewt ... =10&t=2247
along with OT parallels
(Note carefully min that these are two different and independent series
- the first is absolute.)

Minimalist wrote:One cannot ask for more than that, E.P. If there is evidence, textual or otherwise, which sustains an impact conclusion it will not be found by people who aren't out there looking.

min, what you say if true: impact is generally not thought of until no other option is left.
That has been across disciplines.

Amazingly, due to idiocy, the forces opposing comet impact are well funded by NASA.
Aside from that you have to deal with the psychology of denial, and various cranks, cult leaders and their victims.

Take a look at Mohenjo Daro, for example.

impact is generally not thought of until no other option is left.

Perhaps that is because the catastrophists...to coin a term...insist upon running around shrieking "WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!" if an asteroid hits us?

Even the Dinosaur Killer - alleged to have been the size of Mt. Everest - did not wipe out all life on earth. If it had, we wouldn't be here. A little more "Nova" and a little less "SciFi Channel" might help the debate become more constructive?

Just a thought.

Minimalist wrote:

impact is generally not thought of until no other option is left.

Perhaps that is because the catastrophists...to coin a term...insist upon running around shrieking "WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!" if an asteroid hits us?

Even the Dinosaur Killer - alleged to have been the size of Mt. Everest - did not wipe out all life on earth. If it had, we wouldn't be here. A little more "Nova" and a little less "SciFi Channel" might help the debate become more constructive?

Just a thought.

Actually, min, the neo-catastrophists never say "We're all gonna die.".
That's reserved for the nut jobs who don't know what they are talking about.

It's simply that impacts have been far more common than previously thought, and more money needs to be spent to try to prevent impact deaths from happening again.

For the KT, see here:
http://www.economist.com/node/14698363

Ground burrowing animals survived.

Just as at the YD, animals with lower fodder requirements, better fat storage and better thermal control survived.

What's going to clear the impact hazard up is Obama or Bolden firing Ed Weiler.

Otherwise, the "debate" over the impact hazard and the environmental effects of comet dust loads will end in 2022:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/73P/Schwas ... 93Wachmann
http://www.aerith.net/comet/catalog/007 ... tures.html

Sadly, E.P. most of the morons who aren't watching American Idol are watching History Channel/ Sci Fi in which "WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE" is a big seller.

If I recall the last one it was that not only did the meteor kill every animal but the temperature rose to 1,500 degrees and acid rain killed anything that was left.

Obviously, this has never happened before if you see my point.


(sigh).