Lake Baikal Skeleton and Ancient Americans

[shawomet]

This does seem pretty interesting...

http://siberiantimes.com/science/casest ... sensation/

"New DNA findings, if confirmed, have stunning implications for our understanding of both pre-historic Siberians - and native Americans. They would suggest that, contrary to previous understanding, some indigenous populations are - in fact - European or West Asiatic in origin.

The Danish-US research was carried out on the bones of a Siberian boy whose remains were found near the village of Mal'ta close to Lake Baikal in the 1920s in a grave adorned with flint tools, pendants, a bead necklace and a sprinkling of ochre. The remains are held in the world famous Hermitage Museum in St Petersburg and analysis of a bone in one of his arms represents 'the oldest complete genome of a modern human sequenced to date', according to Science magazine.

'His DNA shows close ties to those of today's Native Americans. Yet he apparently descended not from East Asians, but from people who had lived in Europe or western Asia,' said ancient DNA expert Eske Willerslev of the University of Copenhagen. 'The finding suggests that about a third of the ancestry of today's Native Americans can be traced to 'western Eurasia'.'

The research may help explain why 'European ancestry previously detected in modern Native Americans do not come solely from mixing with European colonists, as most scientists had assumed, but have much deeper roots', said the report."

[Ernie L]

This does seem pretty interesting...

Indeed..thanks for the heads up

[Cognito]

'His DNA shows close ties to those of today's Native Americans. Yet he apparently descended not from East Asians, but from people who had lived in Europe or western Asia,' said ancient DNA expert Eske Willerslev of the University of Copenhagen. 'The finding suggests that about a third of the ancestry of today's Native Americans can be traced to 'western Eurasia'.'

This shouldn't be a total shock since the Lake Baikal region represents a launch point into Eastern Siberia, Beringea and the Americas. Further, Amerindian shamanism closely resembles that found in the Lake Baikal region.

Looks as if Willerslev used autosomal DNA (nuclear, non-sex chromosomes) to make his conclusion which is a wise move. Sweeping conclusions based on yDNA and mtDNA results will only provide a part of the picture. Since yDNA is passed from father to son, it can be 'washed out' over eons ... quicker than mtDNA from mother to daughter since Paleos valued child-bearing women when settlements were attacked (i.e. "Kill all the men and grab the women"). The above would explain why some North American tribes still retain some mtDNA X2, a Western Asian haplogroup while it is virtually absent in South American populations.

Further, I speculate that yDNA R1 will be found in very ancient Amerindian skeletons at some point, the same with mtDNA U5.

[uniface]

The Mal'ta child represents a population of Native American ancestors who moved into Siberia, probably from Europe or west Asia. 

Then, sometime after the Mal'ta boy died, this population mixed with East Asians.

The new, admixed population eventually made its way to the Americas.

http://siberiantimes.com/science/casest ... sensation/

[Tiompan]

'

This shouldn't be a total shock since the Lake Baikal region represents a launch point into Eastern Siberia, Beringea and the Americas. Further, Amerindian shamanism closely resembles that found in the Lake Baikal region. '

We don't know the cosmology of Paleolithic peoples or whether shamanism as practiced in the historical period inthe Lake Baikal area would have been practiced anywhere in prehistory .

[/quote]

[uniface]

We don't know the cosmology of Paleolithic peoples or whether shamanism as practiced in the historical period inthe Lake Baikal area would have been practiced anywhere in prehistory .

See Eliade.

[Tiompan]

We don't know the cosmology of Paleolithic peoples or whether shamanism as practiced in the historical period inthe Lake Baikal area would have been practiced anywhere in prehistory .

See Eliade.

I've " seen " Eliade , it is doesn't answer the question . How can any one , never mind Eliade , someone who had never even done any anthropological field work , know the cosmology of anyone in the Paleolithic ?

George

[uniface]

I've " seen " Eliade

But apparently not read what he wrote. The archaic cosmology he outlines endured everywhere records survive from.

[Tiompan]

I've " seen " Eliade

But apparently not read what he wrote. The archaic cosmology he outlines endured everywhere records survive from.

The suggestion was "see " hence the response "seen" but fwiw also read and not blindly accepted as has been the case for many .
Records by their nature are historic they can hardly be expected to tell us much about prehistory never mind the Paleolithic . We do have relatively early records of cosmology e.g. Egypt , Babylon the Vedas etc , there are no mentions of anything approaching the much later historic descriptions of shamanism in the Lake Baikal area .
The question was "How can any one , never mind Eliade , someone who had never even done any anthropological field work , know the cosmology of anyone in the Paleolithic ?" Further , how did so many blindly accept this narrative ?

[uniface]

"Fieldwork" has as much relevance to comparative mythology/cosmology as anatomy has to linguistics.

What's involved is identifying and elucidating the structural elements that are common denominators in all accounts. Such as the World Tree, the Shaman's Journeying &c.

How could you read his books and not see that ?

[shawomet]

If one examines shamanism in the circumpolar region, there are close similarities right across the top of the world. The World Tree, the descent into the underworld, etc. I don't believe shamanic spiritual technologies evolved in the twinkling of an eye. It's likely once a hunting culture discovered psychogenic substances, shamanic technologies were not far behind. I see no compelling reason why Paleolithic people's would not have ventured into the same regions of psychogenic spirituality as Stone Age cultures in the world today. If that were the case, we really should not expect shamanism practiced by say the Clovis people to be completely un recognizable from shamanism today. No, I don't think we can say for certain because the people of 25,000 years ago are not here to interview or study. But shamanism is world wide, and the elements of shamanism are world wide and transcultural. It's very hard to understand how it would NOT have deep roots, since it is a world wide approach to a "greater whole" that was apparently explored by all pre literate societies. I don't believe we need written records to make such a supposition. I love Eliade as well. I also believe that psychogenic substances should actually be expected to produce similar cosmologies. Take ayahuasca as a good example. As you may know, quite popular with Western tourists these days. One of the extremely interesting aspects is the visions and beings encountered are similar regardless of the cultural background of the participant in ayahuasca sessions. I know a few people who have made this journey. The same plant spirit guardians that visit the practicing shamans visit the tourist from New York. The very same beings manifest regardless of cultural background. And which to me says something about the validity of the shamanic universe, but that's a personal observation. I do believe, though, that the shamanic cosmology is similar throughout the preliterate world, because there is an objective foundation to shamanism, which is to say I believe shamans enter a very real world, and not something to be dismissed as mere hallucinations. But that is something only a few in the West would care to admit, although the world that opens seems every bit as real and valid as the world most of us live in everyday, if, in fact, not more so. In any case, very hard to envision the development of shamanism without psychotropic plants and spiritual techniques designed to alter consciousness. And we can at least know, from cave paintings, that Cro Magnon practiced hunting magic. I see reference to the same artistic evidence at Lake Baikal, but I'm not familiar with that. But it does seem like the archetypes and iconography and elements of shamanism and the shamanic journey are very similar everywhere, and very early everywhere. If we can't talk to someone from the Paleolithic world, I really don't think we're stretching things in a totally unjustified manner if we chose to think this shamanism does in fact have it's roots in the very distant past of our Paleolithic forbearers.

[Tiompan]

"Fieldwork" has as much relevance to comparative mythology/cosmology as anatomy has to linguistics.

What's involved is identifying and elucidating the structural elements that are common denominators in all accounts. Such as the World Tree, the Shaman's Journeying &c.

How could you read his books and not see that ?

How could you read his works and accept conclusions which were based on the writings of untrained travellers , none older than the 16 th C , in many cases neither anthropologists nor ethnographers ? Then extrapolate that uninformed info into a belief that cosmologies or magico /religious systems remain unchanged from the late historical period into the prehistoric as far as the Paleolithic whilst also ignoring the uncommon denominators .

[shawomet]

"Fieldwork" has as much relevance to comparative mythology/cosmology as anatomy has to linguistics.

What's involved is identifying and elucidating the structural elements that are common denominators in all accounts. Such as the World Tree, the Shaman's Journeying &c.

How could you read his books and not see that ?

How could you read his works and accept conclusions which were based on the writings of untrained travellers , none older than the 16 th C , in many cases neither anthropologists nor ethnographers ? Then extrapolate that uninformed info into a belief that cosmologies or magico /religious systems remain unchanged from the late historical period into the prehistoric as far as the Paleolithic whilst also ignoring the uncommon denominators .

Again, it is very hard to see the same techniques of altering consciousness, etc.,though out preliterate and Stone Age societies without suspecting an origin in the deep past, IMHO.....

[Tiompan]

"Fieldwork" has as much relevance to comparative mythology/cosmology as anatomy has to linguistics.

What's involved is identifying and elucidating the structural elements that are common denominators in all accounts. Such as the World Tree, the Shaman's Journeying &c.

How could you read his books and not see that ?

How could you read his works and accept conclusions which were based on the writings of untrained travellers , none older than the 16 th C , in many cases neither anthropologists nor ethnographers ? Then extrapolate that uninformed info into a belief that cosmologies or magico /religious systems remain unchanged from the late historical period into the prehistoric as far as the Paleolithic whilst also ignoring the uncommon denominators .

Again, it is very hard to see the same techniques of altering consciousness, etc.,though out preliterate and Stone Age societies without suspecting an origin in the deep past, IMHO.....

Why assume that the same techniques were used to alter consciousness ,if at all ,in the Paleolithic , and if used ,it would provide a unified cosmology all over the globe ? We have plenty of contemporary evidence of various methods that might have been available in prehistory , as we might expect they show a wide spectrum of cosmologies , and none , there is no reason to expect people in prehistory would not also be as imaginative and varied .

[kbs2244]

Why does it have to Asia to America?
Why not the other way?
North and eastward after an ocean crossing.

Or even multiple back and forth?