TWO FRAGMENTS OF A CHOCTAW IMPACT TRADITION

[E.P. Grondine]

TWO FRAGMENTS OF A CHOCTAW IMPACT TRADITION


The traditions of the Choctaws concerning the Oka Falama
[the Returned waters] is as follows:

FRAGMENT 1

In ancient time, after many generations of mankind had
lived and passed from the stage of being, the race became
so corrupt and wicked, brother fighting against brother and
wars deluging the Earth with human blood and carnage,

The Great Spirit became greatly displeased, and finally determined
to destroy the human race; therefore He sent a great prophet [the Peoples' Mourner] to them
who proclaimed from tribe to tribe, and from village to village,
the fearful tidings that the human race was soon to be destroyed.

None believed his words, and lived on in their wickedness;
as if they did not care, and the seasons came again and went.

Then came the autumn of the year,
followed by many succeeding cloudy days and nights,
during which the Sun by day and the Moon and Stars by night
were concealed from the Earth;

Then succeeded a total darkness,
and the Sun seemed to have been blotted out,
while darkness and silence with a cold atmosphere
took possession of earth.
Mankind wearied and perplexed, but not repenting or reforming,
slept in darkness but to awake in darkness.

Then the mutterings of distant thunder began to be heard,
gradually becoming incessant,
until it reverberated in all parts of the sky,
and seemed to echo back even from the deep center of the Earth.
Then fear and consternation seized upon every heart
and all believed the Sun would never return.

The Magi [Spiritual Guides]of the Choctaws spoke despondently
in reply to the many interrogations of the alarmed people,
and sang their death-songs
which were but faintly heard in the mingled confusion that arose
amid the gloom of the night that seemed would have no returning morn.

Mankind went from place to place only by torch-light;
their food stored away became mouldy and unfit for use;
The wild animals of the forests gathered around their fires bewildered,
and even entered their towns and villages seeming to have lost all fear of man.

Suddenly a fearful crash of thunder,
louder than ever before heard,
seemed to shake the Earth,
and immediately after a light was seen glimmering
seemingly far away to the North.

It was soon discovered not to be the light of the returning Sun,
but the gleam of great waters advancing in mighty billows,
wave succeeding wave as they rolled onward over the earth
destroying everything in their path.

Then the wailing cry was heard coining from all directions,
"Oka Falamah, Oka Falamah" ("The returned waters, The returned waters.").

Stretching from horizon to horizon, it came pouring its massive waters onward.
The foundations of the Great Deep were broken up.
Soon the earth was entirely overwhelmed
by the mighty and irresistible rush of the waters
which swept away the human race and all animals
leaving the earth a desolate waste.

Of all mankind only one was saved,
and that one was the mysterious prophet (The People's Mourner, below)
who had been sent by the Great Spirit
to warn the human race of their near approaching doom.

This prophet saved himself by making a raft of sassafras logs
by the direction of the Great Spirit,
upon which he floated upon the great waters that covered the earth,
as various kinds of fish swam around him,
and twined among the branches of the submerged trees,
while upon the face of the waters
he looked upon the dead bodies of men and beasts,
as they arose and fell upon the heaving billows.
....
Soon night came on,
and the Moon and stars again made their appearance,
and the next morning the Sun arose in its former splendor.

And the prophet looking around saw an island in the distance
toward which the raft was slowly drifting,
and before the Sun had gone down seemingly again into the world of waters,
the raft had touched the island,
upon which he landed and encamped,
and being wearied and lonely
he soon forgot his anxieties in sleep;
and when morning came, in looking around over the island,
he found it covered with all varieties of animals excepting
the mammoth which had been destroyed.
...

FRAGMENT 2

In the far distant ages of the past,
the people, whom the Great Spirit had created,
became so wicked that he resolved to sweep them all from the earth,
except Okla tabashih (the Peoples' Mourner) and his family,
who alone did that which was good.
...
The rain began to fall increasing in volume for many days and nights,
until thousands of people and animals perished.
[likely a Christian insertion by missionary]

Then it [the rain] suddenly ceased
and utter darkness covered the face of the earth for a long time,
while the people and animals that still survived
groped here and there in the fearful gloom.

Suddenly far in the distant north was seen a long streak of light.
They believed that amid the raging elements
and the impenetrable darkness that covered the earth,
the Sun had lost its way and was rising in the north.
All the surviving people rushed towards the seemingly rising Sun,
though utterly bewildered, not knowing or caring what they did.
But well did Oklatabashih (the Peoples' Mourner)
interpret the prophetic sign of their fast approaching doom.

Instead of the bright dawn of another long wished-for day,
they saw, in utter despair, that it was but the mocking light
that foretold how near the Okafalama (the Returning Waters) was at hand,

Rolling like mountains on mountains piled
and engulfing everything in its resistless course.
...

These Fragments Preserved by
H. B. CUSHMAN, in

HISTORY OF THE CHOCTAW, CHICASAW and NATCHEZ INDIANS
HEADLIGHT PRINTING HOUSE, GREENVILLE, TEXAS, 1899

and his Grandfather, a Christian Missionary,
both of whom thought it "proved" the "Flood of Noah"

[Minimalist]

Certainly sounds like the kind of drivel that a xtian missionary would seize on. Still, as I recall, the Choctaw date from the 17th century.

[Kalopin]

Certainly sounds like the kind of drivel that a xtian missionary would seize on. Still, as I recall, the Choctaw date from the 17th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw "The 19th century historian Horatio Cushman noted that the Choctaw oral history accounts suggested their ancestors had known of Mammoths in the Tombigbee River area; this suggsets that the Choctaw ancestors had been in the Mississippi area for at least 4,000 - 8,000 years ...", "...but archaeological discoveries in related areas support this hypothesis." The story does discuss the demise of the Mammoths. And Patricia Galloway, with all due respect, puts forth a weak argument! [she should find more fragments ]
At least 16th century, or maybe let de Soto know who it was he got in a fight with in 1540?: http://www.choctawnation.com/history/ch ... l-history/

There are multiple stories in many cultures, all with a strikingly similar story. Many scientitsts have suggested the date as the Younger Dryas event. Here's a comparison of Noah and Gilgamesh: http://www.icr.org/article/noah-flood-gilgamesh/
These stories are not really just about a lesson, but historical accounts.
I would think, to disregard these stories all as myth, with so many, so similar, would, more than likely, be the ignorant mistake to allow a repeat of history, [what is and has occurred!] again with no defense- no technology to divert or even mitigate catastrophe, mmm?

[Minimalist]

Yeah....and the oral "histories" of the Egyptians had their kings living for thousands of years, too. I am not too impressed by oral "histories" and even less by reports of what those "histories" said.

[Nacon]

TWO FRAGMENTS OF A CHOCTAW IMPACT TRADITION


The traditions of the Choctaws concerning the Oka Falama
[the Returned waters] is as follows:

FRAGMENT 1
...

FRAGMENT 2
...

These Fragments Preserved by
H. B. CUSHMAN, in

HISTORY OF THE CHOCTAW, CHICASAW and NATCHEZ INDIANS
HEADLIGHT PRINTING HOUSE, GREENVILLE, TEXAS, 1899

and his Grandfather, a Christian Missionary,
both of whom thought it "proved" the "Flood of Noah"

Greetings EP.

Consider this to be a response to your PM. Would not usually follow such procedures, but my time is limited and the following may be of interest to other readers/contributors.

First, as noted by Min, one would wish to be most cautious in regards to the sourcing and interpretation of traditional oral histories. Would strongly recommend that you obtain and study the following two papers:

Ancient History in the New World: Interpreting Oral Traditions and the Archaeological Record of Deep Time
Roger C. Echo-Hawk
American Antiquity, Vol. 65, No.2. pp.267-290.

Archaeology and Native American Oral Traditions
Ronald J Mason
American Antiquity, Vol. 65, No.2, pp. 239-266.

The above references should be read in conjunction.

As to a detailed and comprehensive mapping of the Mississippi drainage system circa the onset of the Younger Dryas (~ 12,900 BP), am personally unaware of such a reference. This is due to the high degree of complexity involved in regards to the various forces involved (glacial wasting, isostatic rebound, down-cutting, etc.). For example, during the peri-glacial wasting period (ca 13,000 BP), the headwaters of the present Mississippi flowage were in a currently rather mInor flowage known as the Leaf River. In essence, the landscape during this period was subject to quite an array of often rather dramatic (and often localized) alterations. One may wish to focus one's research on more specific geographic locations.

As a last note, one may also wish to be most cautious when ascribing "modern" (ie Woodland) social structures to the Paleo period.

Edit: Punctuation.

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi nacom -

I am very careful in using Native oral materials.

As far as the Choctaw go, you need to remember that unlike the Creek and Chickasaw, the Choctaw assimilated existing "Mississippian" populations as divisions within their nation.
In particular, see my notes here on the search for Mauvila.

Either there is a flow from an ice impact ca. 10,850 BCE,
or this tale was produced by another impact event relating to the drainage of Glacial Lake Agassiz.

In either case, the only problem is locating an undeniable astrobleme,
as there is no reason for those peoples to make up such outrageous stories as "stuff" falling from the heavens and killing people.

If you can come up with a reason other than impact, let me know.

[Minimalist]

They don't even mention the word "impact."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_la ... urst_flood

A glacial lake outburst flood (GLOF) is a type of outburst flood that occurs when the dam containing a glacial lake fails. The dam can consist of glacier ice or a terminal moraine. Failure can happen due to erosion, a buildup of water pressure, an avalanche of rock or heavy snow, an earthquake or cryoseism, volcanic eruptions under the ice, or if a large enough portion of a glacier breaks off and massively displaces the waters in a glacial lake at its base.

[Kalopin]

Greetings EP.

Consider this to be a response to your PM. Would not usually follow such procedures, but my time is limited and the following may be of interest to other readers/contributors.

First, as noted by Min, one would wish to be most cautious in regards to the sourcing and interpretation of traditional oral histories. Would strongly recommend that you obtain and study the following two papers:

Ancient History in the New World: Interpreting Oral Traditions and the Archaeological Record of Deep Time
Roger C. Echo-Hawk
American Antiquity, Vol. 65, No.2. pp.267-290.

Archaeology and Native American Oral Traditions
Ronald J Mason
American Antiquity, Vol. 65, No.2, pp. 239-266.

The above references should be read in conjunction.

As to a detailed and comprehensive mapping of the Mississippi drainage system circa the onset of the Younger Dryas (~ 12,900 BP), am personally unaware of such a reference. This is due to the high degree of complexity involved in regards to the various forces involved (glacial wasting, isostatic rebound, down-cutting, etc.). For example, during the peri-glacial wasting period (ca 13,000 BP), the headwaters of the present Mississippi flowage were in a currently rather mInor flowage known as the Leaf River. In essence, the landscape during this period was subject to quite an array of often rather dramatic (and often localized) alterations. One may wish to focus one's research on more specific geographic locations.

As a last note, one may also wish to be most cautious when ascribing "modern" (ie Woodland) social structures to the Paleo period.

Edit: Punctuation.

First, in remembrance, a prayer for the thousands, yet to be recognized, who perished this day, 202 years ago, by a Sungrazer comet...

Am I understanding, do you suggest a multitude of Choctaw chieftains would purposely give false information concerning history and science of their past, but have no problem believing the NONSENSE you've been taught [and graded on!] concerning the processes to form Earth's topography, [and especially the Mississippi embayment!] and do not even see the irony? That is just hilarious!

You misunderstand the importance of honesty and honor within early American tribes. There was no 'fortune/fame' incentive to be dishonest. If you would like to know what actually occurred, read/re-read and study well, all the links posted on the two discussions of mine on this forum.

[Nacon]

Hi nacom -

I am very careful in using Native oral materials.

As far as the Choctaw go, you need to remember that unlike the Creek and Chickasaw, the Choctaw assimilated existing "Mississippian" populations as divisions within their nation.

Either there is a flow from an ice impact ca. 10,850 BCE,
or this tale was produced by another impact event relating to the drainage of Glacial Lake Agassiz.

1) This is to be questioned. Hence the recommendation of the previous citations. The authors present very qualified (and somewhat opposing) introspection into the utilization of traditional oral histories. These references are readily available and would be of notable assistance to a critical examination of oral histories on your own part. To avoid the study of such could be interpreted as intellectual sloth.

2) You would appear to be missing the point. As you are (hopefully) well aware, the Mississippian cultures would be considered, from a cultural/technological/temporal perspective to be latter to late Woodland at best. Any direct comparison to Paleo cultural elements would be highly tenuous. One of the aspects to be cautious of (and as pointed out by Echo-Hawk and Mason) is the conflation of memory over time. Paleo villages?

3) Am unsure of the depth of your understandings regarding the numerous breaches of Agassiz/Lake Ojibway, the various routes (Nipigon, Glacial River Warren, McKenzie) and the temporal span involved in these various breaches.

Believe that Condron and Winsor (2012) has previously been referenced. To insure:

Meltwater Routing and the Younger Dryas
2012 PNAS

Further references:

http://www.eeescience.utoledo.edu/Facul ... _QSR02.pdf

http://www.eeescience.utoledo.edu/Facul ... r_QR03.pdf

Abstracts. Papers available.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 08954.html

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007AGUFMOS33A1001W

.

[Nacon]

If you would like to know what actually occurred, read/re-read and study well, all the links posted on the two discussions of mine on this forum.

Given that you long ago demonstrated that you have precisely zero understanding of the topics at hand, there would be little purpose in reviewing matters that have already been succinctly addressed.

.

[Kalopin]

If you would like to know what actually occurred, read/re-read and study well, all the links posted on the two discussions of mine on this forum.

Given that you long ago demonstrated that you have precisely zero understanding of the topics at hand, there would be little purpose in reviewing matters that have already been succinctly addressed..

So, is it your belief that I am wrong?
You question ancient tradition and put forth assumed and illogical mechanisms that could not have possibly produced the topography in question and claim I have "zero understanding"?
Sorry, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that I actually have proof that a piece of Comet C/1811 F1 impacted, in the form of man-made objects covered in vitrified sand and impact melt rock. And, if you put in the study you will find no other option for the end of the Pleistocene. Maybe have this "succinctly addressed" again, until it sinks in?

[MichelleH]

Kalopin, your repeated sarcasm is unnecessary and won't be tolerated, so knock it off.

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi nacom -

There were drainages of Glacial Lake Agassiz ca 13,000 BP and ca 10,000 BP:

http://books.google.com/books?id=mj-hgK ... ge&f=false

I appreciate your reading suggestions, but I am pretty comfortable working with the oral corpus [corpi?] of several of the First Peoples, and familiar with the remains their material cultures as well. Right now my reading stack is around 6 feet or so high, and I don't feel particularly slothful.

Given the flood deposits viewed by Hibbens at Fairbanks, Alaska, I am pretty close locating the ice impact. which may have been at the Lloydminster Structure, as well as some smaller impact structures in the Northwest of the US.

[E.P. Grondine]

Thanks, Michelle.

I have various nuts stalking me, and you will notice Kalopin's fixation on me.

[Nacon]

Hi nacom -

There were drainages of Glacial Lake Agassiz ca 13,000 BP and ca 10,000 BP:

http://books.google.com/books?id=mj-hgK ... ge&f=false

I appreciate your reading suggestions, but I am pretty comfortable working with the oral corpus [corpi?] of several of the First Peoples, and familiar with the remains their material cultures as well. Right now my reading stack is around 6 feet or so high, and I don't feel particularly slothful.

Given the flood deposits viewed by Hibbens at Fairbanks, Alaska, I am pretty close locating the ice impact. which may have been at the Lloydminster Structure, as well as some smaller impact structures in the Northwest of the US.

EP: Apologies for the slow response. Professional obligations. The following will be brief and will be followed up with more detail within coming days.

1) Will defer commenting on your concepts of the understanding of oral histories until you have read the supplied references. Your hubris in this regard is notable.

2) Over the 5000 year history of Glacial Lake Agassiz, this glacially-wasting body was breached at least 18 times (Tellar and Leverington 2003). Of these discharges, at least three are considered to have been major. The last major breaching is dated ca 8400 cal rcyBP.

.