Coneheads

[Ernie L]

Been seeing Foerster's Facebook posts recently and he's a pretty radical dude. Even so I do like using science to debunk his BS instead of just dismissing him out of hand. Scientists should keep an open mind and use their science to disprove radical theories, not just attack a person's character.

Thanks for your patience, Ernie.

Your quite welcome Frank..I learned a thing or two from this thread.
You really can't blame people for looking at these elongated skulls and thinking "Whoa..no way that's a human"
The ancient peoples of the Americas really were highly skilled sculptures..in more than just stone.

the angle of the forehead just above the eyes is about the same as a dogs !!!

I imagine this fellow must have scared the woman,children and live stock..and truth be told..I would not want him staring me down...he gives me the shivers.

[Frank Harrist]

Where's the "Like" button?

[Frank Harrist]

The Paracas skulls, however, are different. The cranial volume is up to 25 percent larger and 60 percent heavier than conventional human skulls, meaning they could not have been intentionally deformed through head binding/flattening. They also contain only one parietal plate, rather than two. The fact that the skulls’ features are not the result of cranial deformation means that the cause of the elongation is a mystery, and has been for decades. - See more at: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evo ... wrBGe.dpuf

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evo ... incredible

There were over 300 of these skulls! I didn't know that before.

[Ernie L]

The Paracas skulls, however, are different. The cranial volume is up to 25 percent larger and 60 percent heavier than conventional human skulls, meaning they could not have been intentionally deformed through head binding/flattening. They also contain only one parietal plate, rather than two. The fact that the skulls’ features are not the result of cranial deformation means that the cause of the elongation is a mystery, and has been for decades. - See more at: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evo ... wrBGe.dpuf

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evo ... incredible


Wouldn't it be a wonder if a new variant of human was found in the new world. Color me skeptical for now though Frank.
The Paracas skulls, however, are different. The cranial volume is up to 25 percent larger....

25 percent larger than what?..the average modern human? a skull from the same population and location age and sex?
A 25 percent variation in skull(cranial) volume is normal.

The Australian Aborigines have a cranial volume of about 1199 +-84 ml (*1)
"The cranial capacity of the modern male Japanese is 1551.8 cc, on average, ranging from 1250 cc to 1920 cc. " (2)

The video uses a straw man argument....intentional or not I cannot say. To pick up a 1200 cc cranium and say you cannot then produce the elongated skull that has a 1500 cc cranial volume from it..Well who said that you could?...could it not be that the large skulled person was on the high end of the range of human cranial volume ?..and the non elongated skull at the other..who knows what age or sex it was.

I can't speak to the 60 percent increase in cranial weight other than to say compared to what?..again a large head weighs more than a smaller one does it not?
The cranial volume is up to 25 percent larger and 60 percent heavier than conventional human skulls, meaning they could not have been intentionally deformed through head binding/flattening. No it does not mean that for the reasons I have given.

The fact that the skulls’ features are not the result of cranial deformation means that the cause of the elongation is a mystery, and has been for decades.
For this to be true you would have except his conclusions from the previous statement which I do not..so no this is not a " fact"

There were over 300 of these skulls! I didn't know that before
I would expect there were quite a few more than this at one time..there must have been many hundreds of elites , priests and other high mukkity muks during the course of what ever Peruvian civilization these skulls represent. But lets say there were only 300 skulls and that civilization lasted 300 years..well you do the math. If you consider them a different species then that is not exactly a teeming viable population.

as far as the DNA results...well...we will see ...I am not an expert..just trying to learn ..but I would first ask what is the chromosome number

(1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1261675/
(2) http://www.um.u-tokyo.ac.jp/publish_db/ ... 19003.html see the paragraph below table 2.2

[Frank Harrist]

Just posting the latest info available on the subject...without judgement. All input on the subject is appreciated. I am taking no side in this argument. It just doesn't seem to die so I'll post whatever I get. The link came from Foerster's Facebook page. I received it on my news feed so I passed it along. I will continue to do so. May be all bullshit, but it's interesting to me. Thanks for the input and info.

[uniface]

In the absence of language any more specific, "25% larger" would be safely understood to imply that an average elongated skull is 25% larger than an average normal skull. Weight similarly.

[Frank Harrist]

In the absence of language any more specific, "25% larger" would be safely understood to imply that an average elongated skull is 25% larger than an average normal skull. Weight similarly.

That's kinda the way I took it too, Uni. Otherwise it's something like a politician would say to skew the facts.

[shawomet]

I brought the subject up with a knowledgable friend. Here is his take, verbatim. I hope this represents some clarification:


"OK. What I know is this. Cranial elongation (dolichocephaly) is a well-known practice in many ancient cultures – generally achieved by binding the head with bandages or cords (sometimes in conjunction with wooden boards) in infancy (up to about 6 months, but in some cases up to 2 years). Beyond that the skull is no longer pliant enough for binding to have any real effect and children resist the apparatus required to achieve it. The Maya and the Inca practised it, as did the people living on the Paracas Peninsula in Peru. Nothing mysterious about it. Generally, it was a means of making a distinction of social classes, or of aspiring to it by imitation (where elongated was perceived as superior).

But dolichocephaly has two other explanations, both of which are natural – inherited genetic character/preponderance; and sporadic deformity, arising from genetic mutation. In the case of the Paracas culture, there is evidence for both artificial and natural elongation with the majority of it being artificial. We have to rule out the sporadic mutation option because of the sheer number of skulls involved. This dual-explanation (artificial plus natural genetic inheritance) is also believed to be the case in some other cultures where it appears that a lineage (perhaps exhibiting a genetically inherited skull shape or perceived skull size) has established itself as “superior” based on skull morphology and the shape has subsequently been imitated by artificial binding.

It’s therefore important to be very discriminating about what the evidence actually shows, rather than just talk about “cone-head” skulls in general. Artificial skull binding changes the shape of a skull, but does not generally alter the volume (Friess & Baylac 2003). By contrast, genetic factors most certainly do generally dictate that elongated skulls (in hominins) have larger cranial capacities. At least 90 skulls from the Paracas peninsula have cranial capacities that are larger than modern humans. Although there are extreme claims for “more than twice as big” that’s not the general picture. The average size is around 25% bigger.

The large tomb/cemetery complex on the north side of the Paracas peninsula contains mummies and skeletons, many of which have remarkably elongated skulls. It’s not exactly a new discovery. It was reported in the late 1800’s and extensively excavated by Tello in 1928. There appear to be at least 5 distinct shapes of elongated skull within the Paracas culture burials, with particular shapes predominating in specific parts of the cemetery complex. The larger skulls are found at the Chongos site, north of Paracas. As well as being physically larger, they are also significantly heavier, with larger orbital sockets and larger, thicker jaws – as well as having a number of other specific anatomical features. But they are nevertheless human.

Work by Tschudi in the 1800’s on the history, archaeology and skull morphology of pre-Incan “races” suggested that there were three - the Chinchas, the Aymaraes, and the Huancas. He distinguished them particularly because Chincha skulls were what we would recognise as similar to modern humans, whereas the other two had “dolichocephalic traits” (ie genetically elongated crania), quite unlike the Chinchas. Of the three groups, the Huancas had the most pronounced elongation (and enlargement). It has been long known that what we call the Inca civilisation was not a single ethnic group and Tschudi’s conclusion was that the dynasty of the Incas commenced with the Aymaraes and that they unified the civilisation by conquest of the other two peoples. He also pointed out that “Inca” is in fact a term that venerates the emperors of Peru (not an ethnic group) and that the Chinchas (those with normal-shaped skulls) had a habit of mimicking the “cone-heads” by using artificial binding to “improve” their skull shapes.

Tschudi was quite clear that cranial elongation in Peruvian ethnic groups was not solely the result of artificial binding since his study was not confined to adults. For Aymaraes burials, he reported many mummies of young children which exhibited the same skull elongation seen in adults, two cases in children not more than a year old (analysed in England) and also an example in an unborn child in the womb of a mummified pregnant woman (Rivero & Tschudi 1851).

As far as I know, there has been no carbon-dating for the large Paracas skulls but I have seen unsupported anecdotal claims for them being two or three thousand years old. That’s pretty consistent with the known dates for the Paracas culture (around 700 BC - 100 AD) from other archaeological evidence.

DNA tests are being conducted or have been commissioned by at least two groups that I am aware of. Neither group has come to a firm conclusion since the work is incomplete, but both groups have released preliminary results.

Marzulli (in October last year) reported: “Sample 2A from the skull bone is very special. I recovered an almost complete sequence of mtDNA from it and presumably a lot of nuclear sequences as well, but I did not analyze this aspect yet. The mtDNA sequence is very interesting. It does match human mtDNA, but has a LOT of unique mutations that are not present in most known haplotypes from A to Y, nor in Denisova or Neanderthal. Many of them are completely unique and not what is normally found in South America.”

Foerster (today) reported: “It had mtDNA with mutations unknown in any human, primate, or animal known so far. But a few fragments I was able to sequence from this sample indicate that if these mutations will hold we are dealing with a new human-like creature, very distant from Homo sapiens, Neanderthals and Denisovans…. I am not sure it will even fit into the known evolutionary tree… If the Paracas individuals were so biologically different, they would not have been able to interbreed with humans.” It's those provocative comments from Foerster that have caused it all to kick off again.

Both of them have, to some extent, a vested interest in a radical conclusion. Marzulli’s quote is probably the most honest position for what we are able to say at the moment but he’s the one drawing the most radical (and unjustified) conclusions, spouting stuff about Nephilim angels. Well, I guess it’s good for book sales.

But let’s be clear about the genetics. The mitochondrial DNA is human. Not alien. There are a number of mutations which distinguish it from other known lineages. It’s the mutations that are unrecognised, not the basic DNA itself. It wouldn’t be surprising if it’s those mutations which have determined the differences in skull morphology and perhaps other traits. The mutations do not in themselves point to a novel “human-like creature” as Foerster puts it. They could equally be explained by inheritance from the Aymaraes or the Huancas (or a small and previously unrecognised ethnic group.) The DNA work is incomplete, unreplicated, not peer-reviewed or independently verified and unpublished. Foerster has book sales to consider too. I understand that he intends to publish a new book straight after the genetic evidence is published (but I bet you the DNA analysis will not be published in any of the mainstream genetic journals and won't get adequate peer review).

[Just to be clearer about my use of the word "mutation" in relation to the differences in the DNA. Any deviation from normal sequences is a mutation. I'm making a distinction between the kinds of mutations which evolve gradually such that skin colour gets lighter or people get less hairy or whatever and sporadic mutations that result in unexpected abnormalities like occasional incredibly tall people or albinos. The former generally relate to inherited characteristics... which is what we're talking about here. The latter are most usually one-offs which are not inherited.]"

[Frank Harrist]

Thank you Shawomet! Now isn't this much more civil and productive than simply trashing each other and Foerster et al? This is what we call science, folks! Check into it!

[shawomet]

Thank you Shawomet! Now isn't this much more civil and productive than simply trashing each other and Foerster et al? This is what we call science, folks! Check into it!

Your welcome. I must admit it turned out to be more interesting then my original gut reaction told me it was. It's a very interesting subject! An elite characterized by genetically determined cone heads? Fascinating!

[uniface]

This coming from an individual who would appear to have no apparent advanced qualifications in the sciences yet does appear to have a bit of a penchant for fringe "science".

As politely as possible : Get over yourself.

We are.

[shawomet]

Nacon wrote:

"As to my comments regarding fringe "literature", my position stands. It has been my personal observation that "authors" of this nature, combined with the dissemination of this "information" by broader outlets such as the "non-History Channel" have led to a proliferation of fallacious information amongst populations that are not necessarily exposed to credible research."
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Personally, I don't doubt for a second that that is what is going on here as well, at least where Marzulli is concerned. The non-History Channel in particular is a contributor to the dumbing down of America. If you live outside the United States, google "America Unearthed Taken to the Woodshed" for a video describing certain questionable approaches to research exposed in the Lost Colony of Ronaoke episode. Can't watch it in the US anymore, where the show is seen, don't know why but it's not right. There was no slander or libel in the 20 minute video so don't know who is so determined Americans not see it. Anyway, I digress, here my friend summarized Marzulli's theory:


"Marzulli has given extensive interviews and participated in long discussions with pseudo-experts and so-called scientists who have no peer-review for their various publications on the overnight Coast to Coast AM radio station broadcasting from Sherman Oaks in California. His well-publicised comments (as also detailed on the radio station’s website) would seem to suggest that this is what he believes:

The human race will soon become enslaved to the armies of the Antichrist (whose wish is to be worshipped under a one-world “religion” of a malevolent nature). Whoever cuts a deal with Israel to rebuild the Temple Mount in Jerusalem will be revealed as the personification of the Antichrist (he suggests it could be Jordan's King Abdullah II) and a confederacy of nations will attack Israel, who will respond with the “Samson option” (a nuclear attack). Comments and actions made by the former President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad were leading up to a nuclear exchange between Iran and Israel (in fulfilment of a 2,700 year old prophecy from Ezekiel) and Syria may also play a role in the coming catastrophe. If Russia sides with Iran, we could see the fulfilment of Ezekiel's prophecy referring to the “war of Gog and Magog”.

The recent “Arab Spring” uprising is one of a series of global turmoil “precursor incidents” which are being instigated by the Antichrist and are designed to “soften up the objective” (world domination by an evil force). Recent extreme weather and climatic events such as the Fukushima earthquake, heatwaves and wildfires in Russia and elsewhere, volcanic activity in Iceland, the Myanmar cyclone, flooding in Pakistan & China, sea-life die-off in Bolivia etc may all be part of that softening up process. “Something's been let loose... to attack humankind in a way that we've never seen and it's manifesting in the earthquakes and the volcanic activity.”

These events are leading up to the “Great Deception” (as prophesised in the Bible), whereby “aliens” will arrive in huge spaceships (1-3 miles wide) and motherships (possibly as large as 150 miles wide) telling us that they are here to save us. The Vatican is getting ready to reveal this extraterrestrial connection. We are going to be tricked into following the Antichrist (perhaps with promises of being freed from disease and granted the ability to live for hundreds of years) so that his evil armies can usher in the Apocalypse.

The “aliens” behind this aren’t aliens in the sense of being from other planets, they are “inter-dimensional beings” (but nonetheless physical). They are “angels that fell from grace” arising from their evil disposition. As a result, they lost some of the supernatural abilities that angels possess and may need to rely on technology (such as disc-shaped craft) to travel and access our planet. Although probably up to 30 feet tall and “reptilian” in appearance, they can “shape-shift” to disguise themselves as any form. Their intent is to manipulate our DNA and create a covert army of hybrids which can integrate into our population and support the takeover of civilisation. An unseen heavenly war is being fought in another dimension between the forces of good and evil, which is about to spill over into our world.

They began this process long ago by interbreeding with human females on Earth, the resultant hybrids being known as the “Nephilim” who are also giant-sized (up to 15 feet tall). The suppression of ancient archaeological evidence relating to numerous giant skeletons around the world is part of the conspiracy to deny us the truth about creationism (versus Darwinism) and perhaps reduce the alarm in the population concerning the imminent apocalypse. In ancient times the Nephilim had a worldwide communication grid system linked to megalithic structures (including the Ohio Mounds) that they used to enslave humans. The system is no longer intact or functional, so when they rise up again they will hijack our existing satellite and communications systems to suppress and control us.

The fallen angels also fathered Nazi occultism. The “Luciferic Sacrifice” of the Jews during the holocaust in WWII may have opened up a “portal” that allowed the “ancient ones” back through to our world - as manifested by the subsequent increase in UFO sightings, “alien” abductions, cattle mutilations etc. Our numerous encounters with “aliens” are linked to this great deception. When the Antichrist comes to power, you probably won't be able to buy, sell, or trade without accepting the “mark of the beast” (as prophesised in the Book of Revelation”). That mark will probably be offered in the form of a micro-chip-like implant portrayed as a kind of genetic upgrade that will increase your lifespan. Marzulli says the deception will be “the greatest Trojan horse in history”. Prototypes of these implants have already been found in people who have been kidnapped by “aliens”.

The mass-micro-chipping process might start before the armies of the Antichrist announce themselves. A terrorist attack involving suitcase-sized nuclear weapons might be a good pretext for the covert hybrids that have infiltrated the decision-making circles in our society to enforce micro-chipping on the populace for alleged security reasons. The DNA of those that are micro-chipped will mutate and they will turn into “Nephilim” (“the seed of the serpent”) creating a new and dominant race on Earth."

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Frank, I know you urged we not focus on the researchers, but I don't believe you can entirely. If for no other reason then to see the context out of which the interpretation is arising. I think there is enough mystery with these skulls, as far as elites, genetics, etc. without invoking fallen angels and/or space aliens. So, for Marzulli, these are the skulls of the Nephilim, and for Foerster, the skulls of hybrid aliens? Anyway, that is one complex cosmology that Marzulli has crafted. Hard to believe that anyone could find that cosmology "compelling" in all it's essentials. That must have been some revelation Mr. Marzulli experienced! Lol.....

Here, Marzulli reacts to Foerster's announcement:

http://lamarzulli.wordpress.com/tag/on- ... -nephilim/

"Are these really Nephilim skulls? In my opinion, the evidence is beginning to stack up in that direction, but we must be cautious and patient for all the evidence to come in."

Sounds almost cautious, but does anyone else see any compelling reason to say the evidence is pointing toward the skull of a fallen angel? A fallen angel??

[Frank Harrist]

This coming from an individual who would appear to have no apparent advanced qualifications in the sciences yet does appear to have a bit of a penchant for fringe "science".

Nacon. I do not claim to be a scientist. I am simply trying to get you guys, you "scientists" to be civil and apply your knowledge to the problem at hand and not attack each other or others...or me. I have worked as an archaeologist, but not as a doctor or anyone who specializes in cranial morphology. I asked for you more knowledgeable people to explain these things to me. I thank you for doing so . As I stated earlier I am taking no side in this matter. I simply tried to guide the conversation to a more scientific manner of discussion.....with mixed results, apparently.

[Frank Harrist]

For the record: I do not for a millisecond believe that these are nephilim or "angels". Just trying to get to the truth.

[uniface]

Assuming (for the sake of discussion they're "real") :

They are "Nephilim" in one frame of reference.

They are "Coneheads" in another.

They have probably still other names from other perspectives.

Labels (like "Nephilium") are not realities. They're only words.

Despite the assurances of our last several Big Brothers that it is necessary (even possible) to spend (Carl Sagen voice) "billions and billions" of dollars every year fighting "Terrorism" (a word), words and concepts are, ultimately, only important in that they point to tangible realities. Not in and of themselves.

And when matters deteriorate to the point when they become triggers, keying emotionalist, belief-based (pro OR con) pre-programmed responses, any pretense at rationality disappears, leaving the stage to those whose mental age is expressible in single digits (notwithstanding that a surprising number of them hold advanced degrees) (the kind of end-result that's inevitable when Education is redesigned to make money : as in Lake Woebegone, everybody becomes "above average." By decree).