Deliberate slander by Ohio Historical Society Proxy
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:20 pm
From New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans -
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3873.0
"Perhaps Mr Grondine deserves his own thread at the boards here – not for selling ceremony, but for presenting distorted versions of pseudo-history mixed with conspiracy theory basically claiming early Euro settlement in North America. This is one variant of the same old, same old, with various peoples being 'blamed' for migrating to (North) America, like Phoenicians, 'Nephillim', ice-age Solutréen dwellers from Europe, Welsh, etc.
"In googling Mr Grondine, I found he is getting characterised as a 'space reporter', or sometimes 'veteran space reporter' at several websites or in magazine articles. Now, English is not my first language, so I haven't the faintest what a 'space reporter' may be. If they spoke of a 'spaced out reporter', this would be a different kettle of fish, and probably far more apt...
"Mr Grondine also wrote a lenghy volume on impacts of comets etc and their effects on the Americas and their populations which he is eager to sell, so he also links to it from his profile here at NAFPS. This book is pseudo-history, too:
http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/at ... oid=923072
Quote
E.P. Grondine is a self-published author who came to Kempton a few years ago, after Childress agreed to distribute his book Man and Impact in the Americas, about the effects of asteroids and comets on the evolution of the first inhabitants of the western hemisphere. "David Hatcher Childress is the most successful publisher of fringe literature in the United States," Grondine writes in an e-mail. "And I wanted to learn how he did it.“
Emphasis mine
http://www.amazon.com/Man-Impact-Americ ... F8&s=books
Man and Impact in the Americas Paperback – 2005 by Grondine, E. P. (Author)
Quote
"In this book veteran space reporter E.P. GRONDINE surveys the effects of ASTEROID AND COMET IMPACTS on man in the Americas. The book includes an Introduction to the topic, and chapters on the effects of asteroid and comet impacts on man's evolution; how and when man crossed to the Americas; the impact events at the end of the last Ice Age; the arrival in North America of the Red Paint Peoples and the appearance of Copper Trading Giants; accounts from the Mayan records of the impacts at Rio Cuarto in Argentina and of the ensuing climate collapse; the accounts of the Maya and other peoples of the Great Atlantic Mega-Tsunami, and a survey of that tsunami's effects on man in the Americas; the Six Nations' eye-witness accounts of "Hopewell" societies, their crops, and their astronomy; the arrival of Comet Encke near the Earth in 536 CE and the ensuing climate collapse in the Americas; How, where, and why the Mississippians emerged; the smaller impacts at Key Marco, Florida, Genessee, New York, and in the Bald Mountains of Tennessee; eye witness accounts of the lives of the "Mississippians"; the migrations of the Little Ice Age and the end of the "Mississippians"; and the First Peoples' accounts of the arrival of the Europeans. Written using the First Peoples own accounts and their remains, the book includes a brief TRAVEL GUIDE to their sites, along with photographs or maps of several key sites, and a small MAP of the principal trade routes in southeast North America. The book includes adaptations into easy to read modern English of the FULL TEXTS of: David Cusick's SKETCHES OF THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF THE SIX NATIONS; The Chief of the Guardians of the Temple's account of THE ANCIENT WORD OF THE NATCHEZ; Tenskwatawa, Bluejacket, Black Hoof, James Clark, Nancy Sky THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF THE SHAWNEE; THE KUSHITA TALE OF THE ANCESTORS; and THE WALUM OLUM of the Lenape.
Emphasis mine
One of the reviews comments:
Quote
"He suggests long-term traffic via canoes between Europe, Africa and the Americas, "red-haired giants" (the real "Goliath?) mining copper for centuries around the Great Lakes, and exporting it to Africa via canoe, and many other unfamiliar ideas. This book was self-published by Mr. Grondine ...
Emphasis mine
Then Mr Grondine provided us with a link to a YT video of an interview he gave, explaining that this was the stuff he will be giving a lecture on at the fake Shawnee festival. Talking about 'spaced out'...
The video is introduced like this:
Quote
Did Giants build the ancient mounds in the United States? Many people think that the mounds were created by Nephilims mentioned in the bible. E.P. (Ed) Grondine, author of the book "Man And Impact In The Americas" explains more about the mound builders called Andaste or Susquehannock.
Basically, Mr Grondine speaks about a population of giants by the name of "Andaste aka Susquehannock“. Anthropologists, according to EPG, were astonished when excavating giant skeletons of between 6 and 7 feet, sometimes up to 8 feet. This population allegedly survived several thousands of years on American soil and were only wiped out as late as 1676. EPG claims there were direct eye-witness reports asserting these people were about 7 feet tall. When the interviewer interrupts with the questions that reports even speak of 8 feet and more and was this normal for the Andaste, EPG's reply is 'Yes, this was normal'.
EPG further continues to describe the Andaste claiming they were into cannibalism, child sacrifice, torture, and greed, 'they claimed far more resources than needed and … anybody they caught, they tortured to death'. However, says EPG, 'this is not the Native American ways', but 'we're not sure' whether they 'allowed' Native neighbours to live on.
The interviewer then remarks we won't see any giant skeletons at all in the museums. EPG explains that e.g. the Carnegie in Pittsburgh had excavation reports but 'what happened to their skeletons, I don't know'. On the other hand he claims that 'all the Native peoples remember these guys' and 'the Ho-Chunk fought them, the Ojibwe fought them, Five Nations fought them, the Shawnee fought them, the Cherokee fought them, the Choctaw-Chickasaw knew them [and] fought them'.
EPG then explains 'Finally, a small part of them intermarried with the Osage, and if you ever saw an Osage drum...'. He also claims that part of the giants' culture survived in Osage culture. These remarks are flanked by newspaper items speaking of the exceptional tallness of the Osage – tallest Indians in North America, or so.
If EPG by now got you puzzled how come there is this one ethnic group differing so much from the other peoples in their environment, he's going to answer that, too.... : tadaaaaah:
According to EPG, this was a people originally inhabiting the shores of the Black Sea. Now, when there was an alleged Holocene comet impact [I did not check this, so I prefer to say alleged], they migrated from their former are
According to EPG, this was a people originally inhabiting the shores of the Black Sea. Now, when there was an alleged Holocene comet impact [I did not check this, so I prefer to say alleged], they migrated from their former area which became flooded by the effects of that impact. This ethnic group, EPG claims, had an advanced level of technology. They eventually made it to the Atlantic coast (European side, that is) and from there set out to North America. This, EPG says, took place about 8,000-something BC, 'so we can trace them'.
'Couple of items of their technology are very much advanced – straight edges on stone tools, they bring that over from Europe'. They also brought that to Africa 'when they passed through the strait of Gibraltar. What is also characteristic – and we just realized – is their use of plinths, and these are showing up at Andaste sites'.
Not end of interview, but end of video.
So you followed EPG's description of who he thinks the moundbuilders were up to this point – and now for a serious blow: Not a word of it is true. It's all BS – garbage – fantasy --- in one word: pseudo-history.
Let's start having a look at things over at Europe. However, we don't have do go back to 8,000-something, just to about 5,500 BCE when melting ice and raising sea levels resulted in breaking the Bosporus (between Europe and Turkey, right were Istanbul is situated). Considerable amounts of water then splashed into the Black Sea which at that time had a lower level (apparently it did not get as much melt water as the Mediterranean had, plus the Mediterranean got water from the Atlantic, too). Consequently, its sea level rose, too, flooding the former shore areas. Sea level today is about 90 or 100 ms higher in the Black Sea than it was prior to 5,500. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Black_Sea#History )
No impact, no comet – melt water. Not 8,000-whatever, but 5,500 BCE.
What's even more fatal to Mr Grondine's fantasies is: anthropologists and archeologists haven't excavated any giants in that area either. There were excavations and underwater research which even found traces of earlier settlements around the Black Sea, but none of the remnants suggest the existence of any giants there. Tough sh*t, innit.
Mr Grondine unfortunately is not too specific during that interview regarding the exact area these giants lived in, and the Wikipedia article lists the states bordering on the Black Sea today, so some details re an exact or assumed place would be nice to hear. He is similarly taciturn – at least in this video – regarding just how the giants crossed the Atlantic. In 8,000 BCE, as well as in 5,500 BCE, we're well prior to the existence of sails. Not of boats, though, but this would mean a voyage of about 5,000 kms roughly, more or less happily paddling away with no fresh water accessible except for rainfalls, no plants to be gathered, no game to be hunted, and you got women, children, and old persons on your hands to take care of, too. Remember – the ice had gone, no paddling along any ice shield, or with a lower sea level which might have exposed a few small islands resp mountains of the Atlantic Ridge. And let's not forget about another minor detail: not knowing where they might end up, whether there was any continent or whatever they would end up at.
But anyway, they miraculously did make it over to North America which also does not happen to be the shortest way over from the strait of Gibraltar, or the easiest which would take you to Mesoamerika. Going through the strait of Gibraltar in canoes from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic might also been quite some task, given the currents, but we won't let get stupid facts in the way of a sensation, now, would we. So the giants do make it over to North America and settle down. Sort of, because apparently their environment seems to have been somewhat hostile. Granted, a newly arrived population busting in and torturing and eating captives won't have been welcomed with arms wide open. Still, in Mr Grondine's mind, they successfully survived some 9,500 years. With the only intermarrying happening was with the Osage. Plus they built a few mounds to leave as their legacy. Which introduces quite a racist streak into the picture: 'of course', ndns were too daft to build mounds, that needed 'technically advanced Euros'. Duh! That's what you can get done equipping your stone tools with straight edges! : sarcasm off :
Needless to say, the theory of a giant 'race' of migrated mound builders is put forward e.g. by minds not quite grounded strictly on science but on fantasy, pseudo-history, and conspiracy theories, like the persons maintaining sites like „atlantis-research“, and more pseudo-scientific and/or conspiracy theorist sites. Apparently, since Mr Grondine has been reinvited for lectures year after year at the Ohio festival, it is also what organisers and audience welcome. But what an event: you get fake Shawnee listening to lectures on fake redhaired giant mount building refugees from the Black Sea with of course advanced technology (why, they're Euros, aren't they!).
Mentioning this, I am also curious as to why Mr Grondine believes all his migrant giants were red-haired. Red hair does occur in Europe in a fairly small percentage of the population, and even in Ireland you won't find an entirely red-haird population. So WTF should a people living far more to the south around the Black Sea (or whereever precisely we should be looking for their alleged homeland) be all red-haired?
Plus that the use of copper was no Euro privilege - ndns used it too. But how to claim these Euro migrants - as Mr Grondine apparently does in his book - also exported the copper to Africa using canoes *and* keep a straight face, is beyond me. Then again, Mr Grondine also seems to claim he was a historian. Well, TF he is. He hasn't even been introduced to history's lowest ranking scholar, one gentleman answering to the name of Jack Excrement.
Logged
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3873.0
"Perhaps Mr Grondine deserves his own thread at the boards here – not for selling ceremony, but for presenting distorted versions of pseudo-history mixed with conspiracy theory basically claiming early Euro settlement in North America. This is one variant of the same old, same old, with various peoples being 'blamed' for migrating to (North) America, like Phoenicians, 'Nephillim', ice-age Solutréen dwellers from Europe, Welsh, etc.
"In googling Mr Grondine, I found he is getting characterised as a 'space reporter', or sometimes 'veteran space reporter' at several websites or in magazine articles. Now, English is not my first language, so I haven't the faintest what a 'space reporter' may be. If they spoke of a 'spaced out reporter', this would be a different kettle of fish, and probably far more apt...
"Mr Grondine also wrote a lenghy volume on impacts of comets etc and their effects on the Americas and their populations which he is eager to sell, so he also links to it from his profile here at NAFPS. This book is pseudo-history, too:
http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/at ... oid=923072
Quote
E.P. Grondine is a self-published author who came to Kempton a few years ago, after Childress agreed to distribute his book Man and Impact in the Americas, about the effects of asteroids and comets on the evolution of the first inhabitants of the western hemisphere. "David Hatcher Childress is the most successful publisher of fringe literature in the United States," Grondine writes in an e-mail. "And I wanted to learn how he did it.“
Emphasis mine
http://www.amazon.com/Man-Impact-Americ ... F8&s=books
Man and Impact in the Americas Paperback – 2005 by Grondine, E. P. (Author)
Quote
"In this book veteran space reporter E.P. GRONDINE surveys the effects of ASTEROID AND COMET IMPACTS on man in the Americas. The book includes an Introduction to the topic, and chapters on the effects of asteroid and comet impacts on man's evolution; how and when man crossed to the Americas; the impact events at the end of the last Ice Age; the arrival in North America of the Red Paint Peoples and the appearance of Copper Trading Giants; accounts from the Mayan records of the impacts at Rio Cuarto in Argentina and of the ensuing climate collapse; the accounts of the Maya and other peoples of the Great Atlantic Mega-Tsunami, and a survey of that tsunami's effects on man in the Americas; the Six Nations' eye-witness accounts of "Hopewell" societies, their crops, and their astronomy; the arrival of Comet Encke near the Earth in 536 CE and the ensuing climate collapse in the Americas; How, where, and why the Mississippians emerged; the smaller impacts at Key Marco, Florida, Genessee, New York, and in the Bald Mountains of Tennessee; eye witness accounts of the lives of the "Mississippians"; the migrations of the Little Ice Age and the end of the "Mississippians"; and the First Peoples' accounts of the arrival of the Europeans. Written using the First Peoples own accounts and their remains, the book includes a brief TRAVEL GUIDE to their sites, along with photographs or maps of several key sites, and a small MAP of the principal trade routes in southeast North America. The book includes adaptations into easy to read modern English of the FULL TEXTS of: David Cusick's SKETCHES OF THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF THE SIX NATIONS; The Chief of the Guardians of the Temple's account of THE ANCIENT WORD OF THE NATCHEZ; Tenskwatawa, Bluejacket, Black Hoof, James Clark, Nancy Sky THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF THE SHAWNEE; THE KUSHITA TALE OF THE ANCESTORS; and THE WALUM OLUM of the Lenape.
Emphasis mine
One of the reviews comments:
Quote
"He suggests long-term traffic via canoes between Europe, Africa and the Americas, "red-haired giants" (the real "Goliath?) mining copper for centuries around the Great Lakes, and exporting it to Africa via canoe, and many other unfamiliar ideas. This book was self-published by Mr. Grondine ...
Emphasis mine
Then Mr Grondine provided us with a link to a YT video of an interview he gave, explaining that this was the stuff he will be giving a lecture on at the fake Shawnee festival. Talking about 'spaced out'...
The video is introduced like this:
Quote
Did Giants build the ancient mounds in the United States? Many people think that the mounds were created by Nephilims mentioned in the bible. E.P. (Ed) Grondine, author of the book "Man And Impact In The Americas" explains more about the mound builders called Andaste or Susquehannock.
Basically, Mr Grondine speaks about a population of giants by the name of "Andaste aka Susquehannock“. Anthropologists, according to EPG, were astonished when excavating giant skeletons of between 6 and 7 feet, sometimes up to 8 feet. This population allegedly survived several thousands of years on American soil and were only wiped out as late as 1676. EPG claims there were direct eye-witness reports asserting these people were about 7 feet tall. When the interviewer interrupts with the questions that reports even speak of 8 feet and more and was this normal for the Andaste, EPG's reply is 'Yes, this was normal'.
EPG further continues to describe the Andaste claiming they were into cannibalism, child sacrifice, torture, and greed, 'they claimed far more resources than needed and … anybody they caught, they tortured to death'. However, says EPG, 'this is not the Native American ways', but 'we're not sure' whether they 'allowed' Native neighbours to live on.
The interviewer then remarks we won't see any giant skeletons at all in the museums. EPG explains that e.g. the Carnegie in Pittsburgh had excavation reports but 'what happened to their skeletons, I don't know'. On the other hand he claims that 'all the Native peoples remember these guys' and 'the Ho-Chunk fought them, the Ojibwe fought them, Five Nations fought them, the Shawnee fought them, the Cherokee fought them, the Choctaw-Chickasaw knew them [and] fought them'.
EPG then explains 'Finally, a small part of them intermarried with the Osage, and if you ever saw an Osage drum...'. He also claims that part of the giants' culture survived in Osage culture. These remarks are flanked by newspaper items speaking of the exceptional tallness of the Osage – tallest Indians in North America, or so.
If EPG by now got you puzzled how come there is this one ethnic group differing so much from the other peoples in their environment, he's going to answer that, too.... : tadaaaaah:
According to EPG, this was a people originally inhabiting the shores of the Black Sea. Now, when there was an alleged Holocene comet impact [I did not check this, so I prefer to say alleged], they migrated from their former are
According to EPG, this was a people originally inhabiting the shores of the Black Sea. Now, when there was an alleged Holocene comet impact [I did not check this, so I prefer to say alleged], they migrated from their former area which became flooded by the effects of that impact. This ethnic group, EPG claims, had an advanced level of technology. They eventually made it to the Atlantic coast (European side, that is) and from there set out to North America. This, EPG says, took place about 8,000-something BC, 'so we can trace them'.
'Couple of items of their technology are very much advanced – straight edges on stone tools, they bring that over from Europe'. They also brought that to Africa 'when they passed through the strait of Gibraltar. What is also characteristic – and we just realized – is their use of plinths, and these are showing up at Andaste sites'.
Not end of interview, but end of video.
So you followed EPG's description of who he thinks the moundbuilders were up to this point – and now for a serious blow: Not a word of it is true. It's all BS – garbage – fantasy --- in one word: pseudo-history.
Let's start having a look at things over at Europe. However, we don't have do go back to 8,000-something, just to about 5,500 BCE when melting ice and raising sea levels resulted in breaking the Bosporus (between Europe and Turkey, right were Istanbul is situated). Considerable amounts of water then splashed into the Black Sea which at that time had a lower level (apparently it did not get as much melt water as the Mediterranean had, plus the Mediterranean got water from the Atlantic, too). Consequently, its sea level rose, too, flooding the former shore areas. Sea level today is about 90 or 100 ms higher in the Black Sea than it was prior to 5,500. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Black_Sea#History )
No impact, no comet – melt water. Not 8,000-whatever, but 5,500 BCE.
What's even more fatal to Mr Grondine's fantasies is: anthropologists and archeologists haven't excavated any giants in that area either. There were excavations and underwater research which even found traces of earlier settlements around the Black Sea, but none of the remnants suggest the existence of any giants there. Tough sh*t, innit.
Mr Grondine unfortunately is not too specific during that interview regarding the exact area these giants lived in, and the Wikipedia article lists the states bordering on the Black Sea today, so some details re an exact or assumed place would be nice to hear. He is similarly taciturn – at least in this video – regarding just how the giants crossed the Atlantic. In 8,000 BCE, as well as in 5,500 BCE, we're well prior to the existence of sails. Not of boats, though, but this would mean a voyage of about 5,000 kms roughly, more or less happily paddling away with no fresh water accessible except for rainfalls, no plants to be gathered, no game to be hunted, and you got women, children, and old persons on your hands to take care of, too. Remember – the ice had gone, no paddling along any ice shield, or with a lower sea level which might have exposed a few small islands resp mountains of the Atlantic Ridge. And let's not forget about another minor detail: not knowing where they might end up, whether there was any continent or whatever they would end up at.
But anyway, they miraculously did make it over to North America which also does not happen to be the shortest way over from the strait of Gibraltar, or the easiest which would take you to Mesoamerika. Going through the strait of Gibraltar in canoes from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic might also been quite some task, given the currents, but we won't let get stupid facts in the way of a sensation, now, would we. So the giants do make it over to North America and settle down. Sort of, because apparently their environment seems to have been somewhat hostile. Granted, a newly arrived population busting in and torturing and eating captives won't have been welcomed with arms wide open. Still, in Mr Grondine's mind, they successfully survived some 9,500 years. With the only intermarrying happening was with the Osage. Plus they built a few mounds to leave as their legacy. Which introduces quite a racist streak into the picture: 'of course', ndns were too daft to build mounds, that needed 'technically advanced Euros'. Duh! That's what you can get done equipping your stone tools with straight edges! : sarcasm off :
Needless to say, the theory of a giant 'race' of migrated mound builders is put forward e.g. by minds not quite grounded strictly on science but on fantasy, pseudo-history, and conspiracy theories, like the persons maintaining sites like „atlantis-research“, and more pseudo-scientific and/or conspiracy theorist sites. Apparently, since Mr Grondine has been reinvited for lectures year after year at the Ohio festival, it is also what organisers and audience welcome. But what an event: you get fake Shawnee listening to lectures on fake redhaired giant mount building refugees from the Black Sea with of course advanced technology (why, they're Euros, aren't they!).
Mentioning this, I am also curious as to why Mr Grondine believes all his migrant giants were red-haired. Red hair does occur in Europe in a fairly small percentage of the population, and even in Ireland you won't find an entirely red-haird population. So WTF should a people living far more to the south around the Black Sea (or whereever precisely we should be looking for their alleged homeland) be all red-haired?
Plus that the use of copper was no Euro privilege - ndns used it too. But how to claim these Euro migrants - as Mr Grondine apparently does in his book - also exported the copper to Africa using canoes *and* keep a straight face, is beyond me. Then again, Mr Grondine also seems to claim he was a historian. Well, TF he is. He hasn't even been introduced to history's lowest ranking scholar, one gentleman answering to the name of Jack Excrement.
Logged
