The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

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E.P. Grondine

The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by E.P. Grondine »

Hi all -

As I mentioned in my first note on this, there has been so much horse manure written about the "Younger Dryas impact" by various idiots that I thought I would make my own additional contribution to the pile.

The raw data for this note is much the same, but I will be editing it here over the next couple of days to deal with the second major impact which occurred between 20,000 BP and 10,000 BP.

In my first note I pointed out that in large hyperevlocity impacts, some photons reach gamma ray energy levels, which results in the release of neutrons and thus in the formation of 14C and 10Be.

While some Chinese physicists have hypothesized that 14C is produced in space in comets and then delivered to planet Earth: ... 4-20140121


We now have data from both the impact of an iron asteroid at Meteor Crater and the Lloydminster comet impact available.
This allows the solution of both the gamma ray production equations, as well as the equations for the 14C content of comets.

I am not current with the latest charts of 14C production from 50,000 BC on, but the intcal98 chart, which is detailed and accurate enough for the presentation at hand may be seen on page 13 of Firestone's article here: ... 6_num2.pdf

Again, there one notices the separate and distinct SPIKES. The spike between 50,000 BP and 40,000 BP seems to align with the Meteor Crater impact. No impact has been connected with the spike between 40,000 BP and 30,00 BP. Moving on, nothing between 30,000 BP and 20,000 BP, and then TWO spikes between 20,000 BP and 10,000 BP.

This note will discuss the second spike in 14C production which occurs ca 10,850 BCE.

In my first note I pointed to a large hypervelocity structure likely produced by the first impact of earlier pieces of Comet Giacobinin Ziiner, an impact which brought the last ice age to an abrupt end.

In this note I will cover the formation of the glacial lakes by melt water from the ice sheet,
and their discharge in yet another impact event,
which was most likely the result of impacts by other pieces of Comet Giacobini Zinner.

(And this is data from the Earth on the rate of cometary injection into the inner solar system.
It appears that at least 2 comets that collided with the Earth were injected in the last 15,000 years or so:
Encke and Giacobini Zinner. See:

One may notice that the first sea level rise occurs well before 10,850 or so BCE:


While the second rise in sea level (meltwater pulse 1B ) lies at 10.850 BCE, simultaneous with the second spike.

Tarasov and Peltier's work is usually ignored various self proclaimed "Younger Dryas Impact experts".
Note especially that the Younger Dryas falls between these two meltwater pulses.
And that is one of the reasons why I call these two major impact events collectively the "Holocene Start Impact Events":
they did not occur at the YD.

Where did meltwater pulse 1B come from?:


a) Computed regional drainage chronologies for the Gulf of Mexico
b), the Atlantic
c) and the Arctic.
d) The inferred regional temperature change chronology from Central Greenland, from a calibrated glaciological model

Unfortunately, the flows of the Columbia River and Yukon River, which drain into the Pacific Ocean, are not as well documented.
(Based on the amount of research done, one might think that in some peoples' opinions the Pacific Ocean plays no role in global climate.)

Columbia River Outflow Overview:

or more precisely this graph of the salinity of the water at the outflow of the Columbia River (Lopes and Mix): ... aflood.pdf

New data:


from: ... nology.pdf

The problem is that this data from Spokane uses 10Be dating,
and fast neutrons are produced in large hyper-velocity impacts.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:39 pm, edited 12 times in total.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by E.P. Grondine »



While this map shows Glacial Lake Agassiz, it does not show the other glacial lakes in North America.



For the drainages of the Glacial Lakes:

For Glacial Lake Missoula: ... l.pdf+html

"Does the typical rhythmic couplet really represent one year?
Treating couplets as varves, I infer a 2,000-to 3,000-year lifespan for Lake Columbia
(see section below entitled "Okanogan Lobe").

This inferred lifespan is about one-third the maximum allowed by the history of advance and
retreat of the Okanogan [Ice] Lobe:
the lobe advanced across the Canada-United States boundary
sometime after 19,000 yr B.P. [17,000 BCE]
and perhaps as late as about 17,000 yr. B.P. [15,000 BCE] (Clague and others, 1980);
the lobe retreated from the Columbia River valley
to a point about 15-20 km up the Okanogan River valley
by 11,200 yr B.P. [9,200 BCE] (Porter, 1978, p. 39; age as revised by Mehringer and others, 1984);
and the lobe vacated at least some areas at altitude 1,000 m near the international boundary
by 10,000 yr B.P. [8,000 BCE] (Mack and others, 1979, p. 214-216).

Possibly the Okanogan [ice] Lobe blocked the Columbia River during only one-third of the
time that it lay south of that boundary, for only one-third of the lobe's American excursion was south of the Columbia (pl. 1 ).
The time represented by the typical rhythmic couplet in the Sanpoil River valley thus should not exceed three years and may well equal one year."

For Glacial Lake Bonneville: ... oggle-id-4
"For a long period of its history, Lake Bonneville was a terminal lake with no rivers draining from it.
The lowest outlet for Lake Bonneville, Red Rock Pass in Idaho, had an elevation of about 5,090 feet.

"Approximately 16,800 years ago [14,800 BCE], the lake rose to the elevation of Red Rock Pass and began to flow northward into the Snake River drainage. The flow of water through the pass began a rapid downcutting process that caused a catastrophic flood.

Researchers believe that the flood probably lasted less than a year. During this year, floodwaters cut through the soil and rocks and lowered the outlet elevation about 375 feet. The lake stabilized and the Provo shoreline formed during the next 600 years."

East Central (noted by Elton Jones):
"For the record of lakes which drained around 12.9kybp, Ancient Lake Siota, in eastern Pennsylvania( Near Wind Gap, Pa), was a rather large impoundment (1-3km high ice dam) which breached..12.9kybp [10,900 BCE] (as radio-carbon dated by debris from the outwash bars).
This breach changed the entire drainage pattern in the Broadheads Creek Valley such that instead of flowing into the Delaware via Delaware Water Gap,PA it now feeds into the Lehigh River near Palmerto ,Pa.
This was/is covered in an obscure 60′s publication titled Geological Field Trips of Eastern Pennsylvania (or words to that effect).
The area is populated by many moraines, kames and eratics– generally along the line of Interstate 80.

The terminal moraine for Lake Siota is crossed by State Route 33 via Cherry Valley. Just north of that crossing to the east, lies perched atop a quarry, a large pile of glacial cobbles. This is but a small but powerful insight as to the size of the natural dam that stretched across the valley.
I have found sub-surface chalk specimens in the large well sorted sand pits near there. Yet there are no chalk deposits anywhere along the projected flow of the lobe of the ice sheet. "

Unlike the case of the first impact of pieces of this comet, no impact structure has identified yet.

Thus the distribution of impactites are used as a rough indicator proxy for impact location(s) in North America.


It is not known if this layer of impactites was produced by multiple airbursts, multiple ground impacts, tangential impacts, etc.
While it would be nice if the concentrations of the impactites were mapped,
it is clear that whatever impact processes happened they happened over the glacial lakes.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:23 pm, edited 7 times in total.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by E.P. Grondine »


I spent some time reading through Adrienne Mayor's book "Fossil Legends of the First Americans". It turns out that the Assiniboine remembered at least one of those floods, if not THE flood. Mayor's book is pretty good, and she nearly succeeds in spanning the two worlds, but sadly she did not realize that the first peoples remembered impacts, and thus missed grasping concepts like "uktena" and "tlanwa". As Mayor retells the traditions with her intense interest in fossils coloring her re-tellings, it is tough using her book to locate the original traditions as they were first shared. However, despite those problems, it is a pretty good book.


Fragment 1:

"One Assiniboine name for bones of monstrous size was "Wau-wau-kah". This was a "half spirit, half animal" imagined as a great river monster with long black[?]hair, scales, and horns like trees. Myth [tradition - epg] tells of its death by the impact of a "thunder stone", a black ["black" due to ablation as seen in meteorites - epg], projectile that came whistling out of the west with "terrible velocity", "defeaning noise", and "a bright flash" - a scenario that seems akin to the modern theory of an asteroid impact 65 million years ago [so close :? - epg]. "My bones may be found", warned the Water Monster Wau-wau-kah, but unless the Assiniboines made offerings to its spirit, the monster vowed to create disasterous floods and block their trails with its colossal bones."

Fragment 2:

"A tale [tradition - epg] of the antagonism between Thunder and Water Monsters was recounted by an Assiniboine story teller [tradition keeper - epg] (perhaps Coming Day? - AM) in 1909 at Fort Belknap.

"Long ago, some Sioux and Assiniboines camping at a big lake witnessed a battle between Thunder Bird and a Water Monster on an island in the lake."

The storyteller's grandmother had told him that:
"as the Thunder Bird drew the writhing monster up from the island, the Indians' hair and their horses manes, ["horses manes" a non-temporal insertion - epg] stood on end from the electricity. ["electricity" - another non-temporal insertion.]

[In regards to the "horses manes", it needs to be noted that a rider on a horse in the plains is a high point that will attract lightening, much as a golfer on a gold course will,
and thus it was important to learn the signs of an impending lightening strike.]

"The Thunder Bird's lightening ignited raging forest fires; then a long terrible blizzard followed; and still later the lake bed dried up and many kinds of animals perished there."

Important points:
Impactors came from west
Assiniboine and Sioux were at the lake -
raging forest fire
Long terrible blizzard
lake bed dried up
many kinds of animals perished there
disasterous floods
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by E.P. Grondine »

A FIVE NATIONS impact tradition from David Cusick's Sketches of the Ancient History of the Six Nations.
It most likely belong with the first impact, but had been ellided with accounts of the second impact:

"It came to pass that the Good Creator, as he traveled from place to place, after a while went along the shore of the lake (Lake Agassiz).
There, not far away, he saw the Bad Creator making for himself a bridge of ice across the lake, a bridge which already extended far out on the water.

Thereupon the Good Creator went to the place where the Bad Creator was working, and when he arrived there, he said: "Tawi'skaron, what is this that you are doing for yourself?"
The Bad Creator replied, saying: "I am making a pathway for myself."
And then, pointing in the direction toward which he was building the bridge, he added: "In that direction there is a land where dwell great animals of fierce dispositions. As soon as I complete my pathway to that other land, thereafter they will habitually come over. Along this pathway they will be in the habit of coming across the lake to eat the flesh of human beings who are about to dwell on the earth."

So then the Good Creator said to the Bad Creator: "You should stop the work which you are doing. Surely the intention of your mind is not good."
The Bad Creator replied, saying: "I will not cease from what I am doing, for, of course, it is good that these great animals shall be in the habit of coming here to eat the flesh of human beings who will dwell here."

[These "great animals were most likely polar bears]

So of course the Bad Creator did not obey and cease from building the bridge for himself, and thereupon the Good Creator turned back and reached dry land.

Now along the shore of the sea grew shrubs, and he saw a bird sitting on a limb of one. The bird belonged to the class of birds which we call the bluebirds.
And the Good Creator then said to this Bluebird: "You shall kill a cricket. You shall remove one hind leg from it, and you shall hold it in your mouth, and you shall go there to the very place where the Bad Creator is working.
You shall land very near to the place where he is working, and you shall cry out."
"And the Bluebird replied, saying, "Yo".

Thereupon the Bluebird truly did seek for a cricket, and after a while it found one, and it killed it, too. Then it pulled out one of the cricket's hind legs and put it into its mouth to hold, and then it flew, winging its way to the place where the Bad Creator was at work making his ice bridge.

There it landed, near to him at his task. And of course it then shouted, "Kwe', kwe', kwe', kwe', kwe'." At which the Bad Mind raised up his head and looked, and he saw the bluebird sitting there. He believed from what he saw that the bluebird held in its mouth the thigh of a man, and also that its mouth was wholly covered with blood.

It was then that the Bad Creator sprang up at once and fled. As fast as he ran the bridge of ice which he was making dissipated."

[It is likely that "Bluebird" was a bad translation for "kahastenes". Cusick spoke Tuscarora, wshile his informants spoke Northern languages.
That noted, this "Bluebird "with its mouth covered with blood, whose appearance caused the ice to melt. appears to have been the comet. ]
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by E.P. Grondine »


[While C.S. Rafinesques has been under attack, and he has been accused of concocting the Walam Olum, see the discussion here: ]

1. Long ago there was a Mighty Snake [comet], and beings evil to men.
2. This Mighty Snake [comet] hated those who were there,
(and) he greatly disquieted those whom he hated.
3. He harmed all things, he injured all things,
and all were not in peace.
4. Driven from their homes, the men fought with this murderer.
5. The Mighty Snake [comet] firmly resolved to harm the men.
6. The Mighty Snake [comet] brought three persons [fragments?],
he brought a monster [impact],
he brought rushing water [an impact mega-tsunami or flood from melt].
7. Between the hills the water rushed and rushed,
dashing through and through, destroying much.
8. Nanabush, the Strong White One, Grandfather of beings,
Grandfather of men, was on Turtle Island.

[While "Turtle Island" has certain allegorical aspects , it is strange to see the turtle play such an essential role in Lenape legend. Turtles are reptiles, and for the most part are unable to generate internal heat to warm their bodies, which limits their range to temperate climates; there are and were none of these in the far north of the Lenape people's original homeland. The only possible exception here may have been sea turtles, which thrive in warm water: perhaps the Japanese Current provided warm water to the west coast of Canada, and "Turtle Island" refers to west coastal Canada before the end of the last Ice Age.]

9. There he [Nanabush] was walking and creating:
and as he passed by,
he created the turtle [skin boats?].
10. Beings and men all went forth,
they walked in the floods and shallow waters,
down stream there in the turtle [skin boats?].
11. There were many monster fishes, which ate some of them.

12. The Great Mind's daughter came,
and helped with her canoe [wooden boat]:
she helped all, as they came and came.
13. Thus Nanabush, Nanabush, the Grandfather of all,
the Grandfather of beings, the Grandfather of men,
became the Grandfather of the turtle [skin boats?].

14. The men were then together on the Great Turtle [the Earth],
like turtles.
15. Frightened on the Great Turtle [the Earth],
they prayed that what was spoiled should be restored.
16. The water ran off, the earth dried, the lakes were at rest,
all was silent, and the Mighty Snake [comet] departed.


Part III
1. After the rushing waters [had finished],
the Lenape of the [Sea] Turtle were close together,
living together there in hollow houses.
2. It froze where they lived, it snowed where they lived,
it stormed where they lived, it was cold where they lived.
3. At this northern place they spoke favorably
of mild, cool [lands], with many deer and buffaloes.
4. As they journeyed, some being strong, and others rich,
they separated into house-builders and hunters;
5. The strongest, the most united, the purest, were the hunters.
6. The hunters showed themselves at the north, at the east,
at the south, at the west.


7. In that ancient country, in that northern country,
in that [Sea] Turtle Country,
the best of the Lenape were the men of the Turtle Clan.

[Perhaps the Turtle Clan were the boat builders.]

"8. All the cabin fires of that land were disquieted,
and all said to their priest, "Let us go."
9. They went forth to the Snake [Missasauga] Land to the east,
going away earnestly grieving."

[Snakes, like turtles, are also reptiles, and for the most part are also unable to generate internal heat to warm their bodies. This also limits their range to temperate climates, and there are and were none of these in the far north. The northernmost range of snakes, and in particular of the poisonous Missasauga rattlesnake, would appear to be along the Saint Lawrence at its junction with Lake Erie.]

"10. Split asunder, weak, trembling, their land burned,
they went, torn and broken, to the Snake [Missasauga] Land."
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by E.P. Grondine »

[This comes from Albert S. Gatschet's manuscript, which was not available to me when I assembled "Man and Impact in the Americas", and so this tradition was not included in my book.]


[The following mythic tale of the Battle of the Good Creator and the Bad Creator was also held by the Tuscorora, and David Cusick's version of it from his "Sketched of the Ancient Histoy of the Six Nstions, is given complete in my own book "Man and Impact in the Americas".

This shared tradition is not surprising, as Iroquoian people comprised the first of the three streams that joined to form the Shawnee people. A later borrowing of this tale by the Shawneee can be ruled out.]

The version given here came from Thomas Staind and William Tookey, was elucidated by Thomas Dougherty, and preserved through the hard work of Albert Gatschet.


One of the Twins was the Creator [the Good Creator - Wessi Manitou, elsewhere in the manuscript] and the other the Destroyer, or the Bad Mind (Maeche Manitou, the Bad Creator).
The first was born properly. The second was not born properly; He was born from his mother's side.

Both of them started off. The Creator headed for the Center (Taheliki), just there he came, and then they both came to the Center (Taheliki).

Then one of them wanted to know what they were going to do,
then one of them went to the East, the other to the West,
One of them by turning went towards the place where the Sun rises(East).

"Let us go (to the Center)" the Bad Creator said to the Good Creator,
"There we will look at what each of us has created.

"Too much and too good have you created everything", the Bad Creator said.
"you have given them too much - you have created too much good."

For everything was created so well that people would altogether be too lazy.

[Dougherty(?) elucidated this as
"When the Bad Creator went west, he returned, and said to the Good Creator,
"You created everything too well, the children will be too lazy."]

Then the Good Creator spoke to the Evil Creator.
"Everything too badly you have created, even large snakes [COMETS] even those which will kill people. You have badly created even worse than that."

(Dougherty(?) told this as
"To the Bad Mind the Good Mind said, "You created everything wrong while going west - big snakes would kill a person,
thorns (cactus, most likely a later western insertion of detail) - and your creations would be obnoxious to people.)

Now then they were returning back to where they started.
Then the Bad Creator asked the Good Creator, "What are you afraid of?"
"Of horns", he [the Good Creator] answered.
"And what are you afraid of?", he [the Good Creator] asked.
"Of flagweeds (hapwaki), they will strangle me if you strike me.
[Perhaps these "flagseeds" were some kind of poison used in hunting.]
Then the Bad Mind said "You first"
"Then not you will be first in turn? That is agreeable.", said the Good Creator.
Then he ran towards the sunrise (east). In that direction he ran, and the Bad Creator followed.

Ten times, twelve times, they piled the flags upon one another, until they reached the piles of flags came to an end,
and then they returned to the Center.

Then the Bad Creatror ran to the west. In that direction he ran, and the Good Creator ran after him.
Ten times, twelve times, horns were piled in that direction.
The Good Mind picked up the horns as he was running, and he stuck the Bad Creator with these horns.

Then the Good Creator put a rock on himself, and then the Bad Creator struck him with these horns until he tore to pieces his own garment. Thus he [the Good Creator] killed him [the Bad Creator].

[THE IMPACTS - The order of directions given here, south, east, north, and west is most likely ritualistic, but perhaps it may preserve some memory of sequence.]

Then the Good Creator built a fire, as he wanted to burn the Bad Creator up.

Then while the Bad Creator's heart was in the fire, it burst out, to the South.
The Good Creator went and grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Creator's heart] burst from the fire to the East, and
The Good Creator grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Creator's heart] burst from the fire to the North, and
The Good Creator grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Creator's heart] burst from the fire to the West, and
The Good Creator grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again,
this time bursting.
It burst under the ground.

"That's what I want to do with him", and then the Good Creator stamped on top of the ground.
He jumped up and down on where the Bad Creator's heart had finally burst.

Then the Good Creator thought of going home.
When he came there close to where they lived [Kokumthena (Grandmother, the Creator), the Good Creator, and the Bad Creator], and then he heard somebody at where they stayed.

He stopped a little while, and then started to go to the place again.
There he met Grandmother [Kokumthena, the Creator], and she told him
"You [the Good Creator] have been naughty", she said.
"You have BURNT THE SKIN OFF OF HIM [the Bad Creator]."


Then the Good Creator felt bad, and he started to go about feeling very bad.
Then he went to the Buffalo Lick, and there he sat down.

[After this the Good Creator created the first man and woman at the Buffalo Lick.
This Buffalo Lick may be identified with Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south of the modern city of Cincinnati, Ohio, as the active flint quarries show this area to have been occupied by the survivors after the Holocene Start Impacts.]


The following is usually understood as an explanation for the fossils found at Big Bone Lick, but Jefferson's telling of the (Lenape) (Delaware) tradition from "Notes on the State of Virginia" holds something more:

"Our quadrupeds have been mostly described by Linnaeus and Mons. de Buffon. Of these the Mammoth, or big buffalo, as called by the Indians, must certainly have been the largest. Their tradition is, that he was carnivorous, and still exists in the northern parts of America.

"A delegation of warriors from the Delaware tribe having visited the Governor of Virginia, during the present revolution, on matters of business, after these had been discussed and settled in council, the Governor asked them some questions relative to their country, and, among others, what they knew or had heard of the animal whose bones were found at the Saltlicks, on the Ohio.

Their chief speaker immediately put himself into an attitude of oratory, and with a pomp suited to what he conceived the elevation of his subject, informed him that it was a tradition handed down from their fathers,

"That in ancient times a herd of these tremendous animals came to the Big-bone Licks, and began an universal destruction of the bear, deer, elks, buffaloes, and other animals, which had been created for the use of the Indians;
that the Great Man above, looking down and seeing this, was so enraged that he seized his lightning,
descended on the earth, seated himself on a neighbouring mountain, on a rock, of which his seat and the print of his feet are still to be seen,
and hurled his bolts among them till the whole were slaughtered, except the big bull, who presenting his forehead to the shafts, shook them off as they fell;
but missing one at length, it wounded him in the side; whereon, springing round, he bounded over the Ohio, over the Wabash, the Illinois, and finally over the great lakes, where he is living at this day.'

To this account Jefferson added further information supporting speculation that the mammoth was still alive.

As the Lenapewak were on the west coast of Canada at the time of the Holocene start impacts, they most likely inherited this tradition from the Shawnee. Besides the existing distinct holocene start account of the Lenepwak, the following leads me to suspect borrowing or adoption of the information given to Jefferson. It was noted by Adrienne Mayor:

and her book is advertised there. If I had a copy of it then I would have the originals of her extracts:

"In 1762, John Wright of Kentucky talked with several Shawnee about big skeletons found along the Ohio River. The Shawnee said the bones belonged to an immense animal, the "grandfather of all buffalo," and that they had been hunted by "great men" of the distant past. But after all those supermen died out, THE GREAT SPIRIT DESTROYED THE ENORMOUS ANIMALS WITH LIGHTNING so that they wouldn't harm smaller men of the present day.

"The Delaware elders told Thomas Jefferson a similar story, only they claimed that the gigantic animals were driving away smaller game, like deer and bear. This angered their god, WHO BLASTED THE MASSIVE ANIMALS WITH LIGHTNING BOLTS. Only their petrified remains could be seen today, although it was possible that some had escaped to the far north. Jefferson hoped that Lewis and Clark would discover living specimens of the fossil mammoths so abundant along the Ohio River.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by E.P. Grondine »

Given that the appearance of the Tuscarora in North Carolina is marked by the appearance of Kay stemmed points, the following should come as no suprise:

"Among the ancients there were two worlds in existence.
The lower world was in a great darkness: the possession of the great monster;
but the upper world was inhabited by mankind .
And there was a woman conceived and would have the twins born.
When her travail drew near, and her situation seemed to produce a great distress on her mind,
she was induced by some of her relations to lay herself on a mattress...

"... While she was in the limits of distress
one of the infants in her womb was moved by an evil opinion
and he was determined to pass out under the side of his parent's arm, a
while the other infant in vain endeavored to prevent his design.
The woman was in a painful condition during the time of their disputes,
and the infants entered the dark world by compulsion,
and their parent expired in a few moments.

They had the power of sustenance without a nurse, and remained in the dark regions.
After a time the turtle increased to a great Island and the infants were grown up,
and one of them possessed with a gentle disposition, and named ENIGORIO, i. e. the good mind.
The other youth possessed an insolence of character, and was named ENIGONHAHETGEA, i. e. the bad mind.
The good mind was not contented to remain in a dark situation,
and he was anxious to create a great light in the dark world;
but the bad mind was ^desirous that the world' should remain in a natural state.
The good mind determines to prosecute his designs,
and therefore commences the work of creation.
At first he took the parent's head, (the deceased) of which he created an orb,
and established it in the center of the firmament,
and h became of a very superior nature to be f tow light to the new world, (now the sun)
and again he took the remnant of the body and formed another orb,
which was inferior to the light (now moon.)

In the orb a cloud of legs appeared to prove it was the body of the good mind, (parent.)
The former was to give fight to the day and the latter to the night ;
and he also created numerous spots of light, (now stars).
These were to regulate the days, nights, seasons, years, etc.

Whenever the light extended to the dark world
the monsters were displeased and immediately concealed themselves in the deep places,
lest they should be discovered by some human beings.
The good mind continued the works of creation,
and he formed numerous creeks and rivers on the Great Island,
and then created numerous species of animals of the smallest and greatest, to inhabit the forests,
and fishes of all kinds to inhabit the waters.

When he had made the universe he was in doubt respecting some being to possess the Great Island;
and he formed two images of the dust of the ground in his own likeness, male and female,
and by his breathing into their nostrils he gave them the living souls,
and named them EA-GWE-HOWE, i. e. a real people;
and he gave the Great Island all the animals of game for their maintenance;
and he appointed thunder to water the earth by frequent rains, agreeable to the nature of the system;
after this the Island became fruitful and vegetation afforded the animals subsistence.

The bad mind, while his brother was making the universe,
went throughout the Island and made numerous high mountains and falls of water,
and great steeps, and also creates various reptiles which would be injurious to mankind;
but the good mind restored the Island to its former condition.
The bad mind proceeded further in his motives and he made two images of clay in the form of mankind;
but while he was giving them existence they became apes;
[This must be a later insertion.]
and when he had not the power to create mankind he was envious against his brother;
and again he made two of clay.

The good mind discovered his brothers contrivances, and aided in giving them living souls,*
(It is said these had the most knowledge of good and evil.)

The good mind now accomplishes the works of creation,
not-withstanding the imaginations of the bad mind were continually evil:
and he attempted to enclose all the animals of game in the earth, so as to deprive them from mankind;
but the good mind released them from confinement.
(the animals were dispersed, and traces of them were made on the rocks near the cave where it was closed.)

[This is the Five Nations explanation for the fossils at Oswego.]

The good mind experiences that his brother was at variance with the works of creation,
and feels not disposed to favor any of his proceedings, but gives admonitions of his future state.
Afterwards the good mind requested his brother to accompany him,
as he was proposed to inspect the game, &c,

but when a short distance from their •rnoninal residence,
the bad mind became so unmanly
that he could not conduct his brother any more.
The bad mind offered a challenge to his brother and resolved that who gains the victory should govern the universe;
and appointed a day to meet the contest.

The good mind was willing to submit to the offer, and he enters the reconciliation with his brother;
which he falsely mentions that by whipping with flag's would destroy his temporal life ;
and he earnestly solicits his brother also to notice the instrument of death,
which he manifestly relates by the use of deer horns, beating his body
he would expire.

On the day appointed the engagement commenced; which lasted for two days:
after pulling up the trees and mountains as the track of a terrible whirlwind,
at last the good mind gained the victory by using the horns, as mentioned the instrument of death,
which he succeeded in deceiving his brother and he crushed him in the earth;
and the last words uttered from the bad mind were,
that he would have equal power over the souls of mankind after death;
and he sinks down to eternal doom, and became the Evil Spirit.
After this tumult the good mind repaired to the battle ground,
and then visited the people and retires from the earth."

[Cusick leaves out Big Bone Lick and moves the Tuscasrora to Oswego, the location of the Five Nations survival.]
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by E.P. Grondine »

preserved by Koch:

"There was a time when the Indians paddled their canoes over the now extensive prairies of Missouri and encamped or hunted on the bluffs. At a certain period many large and monstrous animals came from the eastward along and up the Mississippi and Missouri rivers, upon which the animals that had previously occupied the country became very angry, and at last so enraged and infuriated by reason of these intrusions, that the red man durst not venture out to hunt any more, and was consequently reduced to great distress. At this time a large number of these huge monsters assembled here, when a terrible battle ensued, in which many on both sides were killed, and the remnant resumed their march toward the setting sun. Near the bluffs which are at present known by the name of the Rocky Ridge one of the greatest of these battles was fought."

[In times of climate collapse, animals will congregate where the food was best, at lake shores and salt llicks.
About 43 species of mega-fauna became extinct globally due to starvation during the climate collapse at 10.850 BCE.
As there are 7,000,000,000 people living on planet Earth right now, even a climate hiccup will lead to the death by starvation for many of them.]

"Immediately after the battle the Indians gathered together many of the slaughtered animals and offered them up on the spot as a burnt sacrifice to the Great Spirit.
The remainder were buried by the Great Spirit himself, in the Pomme de Terre River, which from this time took the name of the Big Bone River, as well as the Osage [River], of which the Pomme de Terre is a branch.

"From this time the Indians brought their yearly sacrifice to this place, and offered it up to the Great Spirit, as a thank-offering for their great deliverance, and more latterly, they have offered their sacrifice on the table rock above mentioned (a curious rock near the spot of the discovery), which was held in great veneration and considered holy ground."
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:41 am, edited 4 times in total.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by E.P. Grondine »


I want to add here to the traditions passed on above this Lakota tradition as recovered by Firestone's team:


"In the world before this one,
the People and the animals turned to evil and forgot their connection to the Creator.
Resolving to destroy the world and start over, the Creator warned a few good People to flee to the highest mountaintops.
After they were safe,
He sang the Song of Destruction and sent down fierce Thunderbirds to wage a great battle against the other humans and the giant animals.

They fought for a long time because the evil men and the animals had become very powerful,
and neither side could gain an advantage.
Finally, at the height of the battle, the Thunderbirds suddenly threw down their most powerful thunderbolts all at once.

The fiery blast shook the entire world, toppling mountain ranges, and setting forests and prairies ablaze.
Searing flames leapt up to the sky in all directions, sparing only the few People on the highest peaks.

It was so hot that the world’s lakes boiled and dried up before their eyes.
Even the rocks glowed red-hot, and the giant animals and evil people burned up where they stood."

[The moral of this is that it does not pay to be evil,
which is the usual moral the survivors of any impact event
adopt to explain the massive number of deaths that occurred:
those people were killed because they were evil.]

"After the Earth finished baking, Creator began to make a new world,
and as He chanted the Song of Creation, it began to rain.
He sang louder and it rained harder until the rivers overflowed their banks and surged across the baked landscape.
Finally, He stamped the Earth and with a great quake the Earth split open, sending great torrents of water surging across the entire world,
until only a few mountain peaks stood above the flood, sheltering the few huddled People who had survived.

After the waters cleansed the Earth and subsided, Creator sent the surviving people out to populate the new world, our world today.
But He warned them not to fall into evil, or He would destroy the world again.
As the People went out over the land, they found the bleached bones of the giant animals buried in rock and mud all over the world.
People still find them today in the Dakota Badlands. (Retold from Erdoes, 1984.)"

The mention of the mountain peaks where these people survived are likely to be the western ranges, IMO,
as demonstrated by the mt A DNA haplogroup finds there.
The "bleached bones buried in rock" is likely to have been a later explanation for later fossils finds,
somewhat similar to the late materials about Big Bone Lick also passed on above.
E.P. Grondine

Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by E.P. Grondine »

now updated
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by Minimalist »

After the waters cleansed the Earth and subsided, Creator sent the surviving people out to populate the new world, our world today.

You left out the ark, E.P.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
E.P. Grondine

Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by E.P. Grondine »

Minimalist wrote:
After the waters cleansed the Earth and subsided, Creator sent the surviving people out to populate the new world, our world today.
You left out the ark, E.P.
min, in the ancient past there have been many floods at many places at many different times.
Some of them were caused by impact, some not.
Only a fundamentalist such as yourself would try to equate them all to the flood of Noah mentioned in the Bible.

While there are specialists in the Ancient Near East who are working their way through ANE flood accounts,
they do not find fundamentalist ramblings entertaining, and prefer not to be disturbed by them.

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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by Minimalist »

You need to brush up your sense of humor, E.P.

Although you are right....Noah is bullshit.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:50 pm

Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by Swanz »

Question Sir,

I need to find North and South American coastal sea levels circa 4000 - 5000 BP. Also concerned with condition of the Drake Passage at this period.

I'll appreciate help on where to find this info, since I am not having a lot of luck.


Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Post by uniface »

Noah is bullshit.
To insist that there is no factual basis at the root of a (literally) worldwide tradition because it would trash what you believe is infantile.

You are bullshit.
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