There was a nice exchange on Aztlan list in 2009,
but everyone missed the role impact events played in the peoples' world views.
Mike Rugieri, who moderates Aztlan list, has a real problem accepting the existence of recent comet and asteroid impact events.
Re: [Aztlan] Water over the world
Thursday, November 5, 2009 1:49 PM
From:
"David Hixson" <
c@yahoo.com>
To:
aztlan@lists.famsi.org
Paul Sullivan <@verizon.net> wrote --
Some of the issues raised in the discussion of this matter areexplored
in Timothy Knowlton's 2004 dissertation (Tulane Univ.), "Diaologism in the Languages of Colonial Maya Creation Myths."
For those that don't have access to Timothy Knowlton's dissertation, an updated version will be published in the next year by U. of Colorado
Press under the title: "Maya Creation Myths: Words and Worlds of the Chilam Balam"
-Dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Aztlan] Water over the world
Wednesday, November 4, 2009 5:27 PM
From:"donald raab" <@yahoo.com>
To:"Paul Sullivan" <@verizon.net>
Cc:
Aztlan@lists.famsi.org
I've read with interest the various discussions about 'water over the world".
Even if the actual translation is literal it is good news,
There could NOT have been 4 destructions of the world because we are still here.
[Destructions and creations of the world depended on the points of local views.
But in point of fact, mankind as species nearly went the way of the dinosaur,
reaching an estimated 50 people at one point. - EP]
> .......................................................
From:"Paul Sullivan" <@verizon.net>
To:
aztlan@lists.famsi.org
Dave Hixson raises an important question about the meaning of the /il/ infix in the expression, /ha-il-yokol-cab/ or /hay-il-yokol-cab/.
It's a relational term.
If in this expression "ha" means water, then the expression would be "the water of the world,"
even as in modern Yucatec, /ha-il-a-w-ich/ means "the water of your eye," or "tears."
The presence of the relational infix inclines me against reading this a pertaining to water ("the water of the world"?),
but, rather, /hay/ or destruction -- i.e. "the destruction of the world."
That reading is reinforced by the appearance of a related expression,
/noh hail cabil/, "great destruction of the world" (not "great water of the world") in the books of Chilam Balam i
n conjunction with the slaying of Itzam Cab Ain.
Some of the issues raised in the discussion of this matter are explored in
Timothy Knowlton's 2004 dissertation (Tulane Univ.), "Diaologism in the Languages of Colonial Maya Creation Myths."
> .......................................................
"D. M. Urquidi" <@yahoo.com> ""
No,Linda Schele determined that the flood glyph was conneccted to the Venus glyph on page 113 on the Caracol Stela 3.9.9.18.16.3 (Dec. 24. 631.) of the Star Wars booklet from the Maya Meeting in 1994.
The dripping elements are from the nova instead.
Dea
[Dea is a died in the wool Velikovsky fan ansd friend of the late Linda Schelle.
I never read any of Velikovsky's nonsensical work, and have no intention of doing so,
but send those interested in it to Leroy Ellenberger. - EP]
> .......................................................
Forwarded Message: Re: [Aztlan] Water over earth
Re: [Aztlan] Water over earth
Monday, November 2, 2009 2:35 PM
From: "David Hixson" <
chunchucmil@yahoo.com>
To:
aztlan@lists.famsi.org
Michael Grofe wrote --
haiyokocab
/ha/ = 'water'
/yook'ol/ = 'over/on top of' from the adverbial root /ok'/, meaning 'above,
over, on top of'
/kab'/ = 'earth'
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael,
This would have been my translation of haiyokocab as well. Except for the extra /i/ inserted into the word.
I would have expected, based upon standard Maya root formation that there would have been a consonant or a glide before or in place of the /i/.
/ha/ /'i[l]/ /yoko[l]/ /cab/
A quick look through the Cordemex resolved this question for me,
as there is in fact a word "ha'il" (with the glottal stop between the vowels). This term is glossed as "acuatico, aguadija, secrecion".
Without that glottal stop, I don't think one should ignore that /i/ as possibly changing the meaning of this term.
Therefore, while I still think Michael's transcription of the various roots within this term are absolutely correct,
I do caution that this seems to assume an insertion of a consonant between the first two vowels, or the the omission of the second vowel.
Perhaps there is a linguist on the list who could explain the placement of this /i/, since I welcome any corrections to my understanding of Maya orthography.
-Dave
David Hixson
"Nothing more useless than a bored archaeologist"
-Douglas Adams
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forwarded Message: Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
Monday, November 2, 2009 7:24 PM
From: "Michael Grofe" <@gmail.com>
To:
aztlan@lists.famsi.org
Hi Barb, Elaine and Prudence,
I submitted my message before I saw all of yours, so my apologies for the redundancy.
Barb, is it possible that we have here a pun
for both /ha/ as 'water' and
/hay/ as 'destruction' over the earth?
Bolles' reading of /hay/ as 'flatten' would seem to be semantically related to the root 'stretch thin, make flat', yes?
I also found an entry he has about /hai/ as 'of or pertaining to water', but this seems to be a contraction from /hail/:
http://www.famsi.org/reports/96072/h/hah_hakzic.htm
Prudence, the iconography in the "Star War" glyph certainly is suggestive of this 'water over earth' destruction by flood
- albeit with the EK'star/Venus sign included.
The current tentative reading of this collocation, proposed by David Stuart (1995:265, 311–13),
is /hub'/, meaning 'fall, collapse', and elsewhere as 'destroy, knock over'.
However, as far as I know,
the only clues we have regarding the reading are a commonly infixed /yi/ that can replace the KAB' component,
or follow it as a suffix, whereas other examples have a /ya/ suffix.
I found one example on the now famous Tortuguero Monument 6, G4
which contains both the /yi/ and the /ya/ as suffixes following the whole version of the "Star Wars" glyph that includes the KAB' component.
The /-yi/ would seem to be a completive/past tense form, though it may tell us that the root does have a final /-y/.
The /-yi-ya/ combination is less common, but it may read 'since it was destroyed/attacked'.
Barb, any thoughts?
Cheers,
Michael
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: "Barb MacLeod" <@austin.rr.com>
> To: <
Aztlan@lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 13:55:37 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
> Here's a bit of information about the root /hay/ in Yukatek Maya:
>
> It is historically /h/-initial rather than /j/-initial, according to the Motul Dictionary,
and thus it is not cognate with /jay/ meaning 'thin', 'stretched out'.
The Motul entry is <haycabal, haycabil>: 'destruicion o asolamiento y diluvio general con que fue destruido y asolado el mundo'.
>
> Other Motul entries such as <haay cimi u alakob> 'todo mi ganado y mis aves se murieron' suggest that it does not refer specifically to flooding but
> rather to general destruction and widespread mortality ('gran mortandad').
> However, there seems to be a persistent association with destructive floods.
> In the Cordemex (p. 190) under <hayah> one finds multiple examples
> suggesting that /hay/ is an intransitive root (<hayi winik>) and is
> transitivized with causative /-(e)s/; it also forms compounds with verbs and
> nouns (<hay kimil>, <hay kab>, also on p.190) suggesting an attributive
> function, and at times it behaves as a noun, as in Tozzer's form
> <haiyokocab>, analyzable as /ha(a)y yok'ol kab/ 'destruction over the earth'.
>
> Thompson is correct in his understanding of the simpler terms <haycabal> and <haycabil>, which can be analyzed as ha(ay)-kab-il/-al
> 'earth-destruction' plus an abstractive suffix producing '(the general concept of) earth destruction'.
>
> As for any epigraphic references to floods, we have of course the scene on p. 74 of the Dresden Codex depicting
what has been thought to be a great end-of-world flood.
The terms 'black sky' and 'black earth' appear in the text above, which opens with an unknown verb that may be "watery".
Perhaps someone has deciphered it?
>
> And on pages 68-77 of David Stuart's (2005) The Inscriptions from Temple XIX at Palenque
there is discussion of a primordial crocodile sacrifice featuring another undeciphered "watery" verb,
referring in this case to the flowing blood of the beast.
Perhaps this may be a flood reference, but the verb in question is followed by 'u-CH'ICH'/K'IK' -le: /'u-ch'ich'el/k'ik'-el/ 'his blood'.
>
> Barb MacLeod
> From: Elaine Schele <@gmail.com>
> To: Barb MacLeod <@austin.rr.com>
> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 14:49:51 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
> Also, it might be helpful to look at Erik Valazquez Garcia's "The Maya Flood Myth and the Decapitation of the Cosmic Caiman" found at the
> Mesoweb website:
>
http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publication ... lood_e.pdf,
> where he discusses the Temple XIX passage that Barb references, as well as other passages that discuss floods and the flow of blood.
>
> Elaine Schele
> > *************************************************
> > Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:59:34 -0500
> > From: "Hoopes, John W" <@ku.edu>
> > Subject: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
> > To: <
aztlan@lists.famsi.org>
> > In 1907, Tozzer recorded a story near Valladolid, Yucatan in which there is a narrative of four successive creations and their destructions by floods.
In writing of the initial creation, he notes, "This first epoch was separated from the second by a flood called _haiyokocab_ (water over the earth)."
> >
> > Tozzer, Alfred (1907) A comparative study of the Mayas and the Lacandones. Arch. Inst. Am. Rep. of Fellow in Am. Arch., 1902-05, N.Y.
> > (The quote is cited in Tozzer 1941, ff. 633, as from pp. 153-4).
> >
> > In "Maya History and Religion," Thompson speculated that "haiyokocab" was "comparable to the terms _
haycabal_ and _haycabil_ used in the Books of Chilam Balam" (1970: 341).
> >
> > 1) What is the specific etymology and meaning of "haiyokocab"?
> > 2) Is it a typical name for a flood or a name for a special kind of
> > flood?
> > 3) Was Thompson correct about comparable terms in the Books of Chilam
> > Balam?
> > 2) Is there any epigraphic evidence for related terms in pre-Contact
> > literature?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > John Hoopes
> >
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: "Prudence M. Rice" <@siu.edu>
> To:
aztlan@lists.famsi.org
> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:23:11 -0600
> Subject: [Aztlan] Water over earth
>
> So could this phrase be the meaning of the so-called "star wars" glyph that shows droplets over an earth sign?
>
> Dr. Prudence M. Rice
> Professor of Anthropology and Distinguished Scholar
> Associate Vice Chancellor for Research, and Director, Office of Research Development and Administration
> Southern Illinois University
> .......................................................
Forwarded Message: [Aztlan] Water over earth
[Aztlan] Water over earth
Tuesday, November 3, 2009 8:59 AM
From: "Prudence M. Rice" <@siu.edu>
To:
aztlan@lists.famsi.org
My question was really about the possible long-term continuity of a significant trope. In Classic glyphic texts we see a Venus sign with water over a toponym, like Seibal or Naranjo. Could the term registered in Colonial-period prose and myth as "water over earth" (without specifying a particular place) be a continuation of the same concept (whatever it is).
Pru
Dr. Prudence M. Rice
Professor of Anthropology and Distinguished Scholar
Associate Vice Chancellor for Research, and Director, Office of Research Development and Administration
Southern Illinois University Carbondale
Carbondale, IL
.......................................................
Forwarded Message: Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
Sunday, November 1, 2009 1:55 PM
From:
"Barb MacLeod" <@austin.rr.com>
To:
Aztlan@lists.famsi.org
Here's a bit of information about the root /hay/ in Yukatek Maya:
It is historically /h/-initial rather than /j/-initial, according to the Motul Dictionary, and thus it is not cognate with /jay/ meaning 'thin', 'stretched out'.
The Motul entry is <haycabal, haycabil>: 'destruicion o asolamiento y diluvio general con que fue destruido y asolado el mundo'.
Other Motul entries such as <haay cimi u alakob> 'todo mi ganado y mis aves se murieron'
suggest that it does not refer specifically to flooding but rather to general destruction and widespread mortality ('gran mortandad').
However, there seems to be a persistent association with destructive floods.
In the Cordemex (p. 190) under <hayah> one finds multiple examples suggesting that /hay/ is an intransitive root (<hayi winik>) and is transitivized with causative /-(e)s/; it also forms compounds with verbs and nouns (<hay kimil>, <hay kab>, also on p.190) suggesting an attributive function, and at times it behaves as a noun, as in Tozzer's form <haiyokocab>, analyzable as /ha(a)y yok'ol kab/ 'destruction over the earth'.
Thompson is correct in his understanding of the simpler terms <haycabal> and <haycabil>,
which can be analyzed as ha(ay)-kab-il/-al 'earth-destruction' plus an abstractive suffix producing '(the general concept of) earth destruction'.
As for any epigraphic references to floods, we have of course the scene on p. 74 of the Dresden Codex depicting what has been thought to be a great end-of-world flood.
The terms 'black sky' and 'black earth' appear in the text above, which opens with an unknown verb that may be "watery". Perhaps someone has deciphered it?
And on pages 68-77 of David Stuart's (2005) The Inscriptions from Temple XIX at Palenque there is discussion of a primordial crocodile sacrifice featuring another undeciphered "watery" verb, referring in this case to the flowing blood of the beast. Perhaps this may be a flood reference, but the verb in question is followed by 'u-CH'ICH'/K'IK' -le: /'u-ch'ich'el/k'ik'-el/ 'his blood'.
Barb MacLeod
*************************************************
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:59:34 -0500
From: "Hoopes, John W" <
hoopes@ku.edu>
Subject: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
To: <
aztlan@lists.famsi.org>
In 1907, Tozzer recorded a story near Valladolid, Yucatan in which there is a narrative of four successive creations and their destructions by floods.
In writing of the intial creation, he notes,
"This first epoch was separated from the second by a flood called _haiyokocab_ (water over the earth)."
Tozzer, Alfred (1907) A comparative study of the Mayas and the Lacandones. Arch. Inst. Am. Rep. of Fellow in Am. Arch., 1902-05, N.Y.
(The quote is cited in Tozzer 1941, ff. 633, as from pp. 153-4).
In "Maya History and Religion," Thompson speculated that "haiyokocab" was "comparable to the terms _haycabal_ and _haycabil_ used in the Books of Chilam Balam" (1970: 341).
1) What is the specific etymology and meaning of "haiyokocab"?
2) Is it a typical name for a flood or a name for a special kind of flood?
3) Was Thompson correct about comparable terms in the Books of Chilam Balam?
2) Is there any epigraphic evidence for related terms in pre-Contact literature?
Thanks!
John Hoopes
Forwarded Message: [Aztlan] The Nazca self destructed
[Aztlan] The Nazca self destructed
Sunday, November 1, 2009 2:00 PM
> .......................................................
Forwarded Message: Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
Sunday, November 1, 2009 2:49 PM
From: "Elaine Schele" <@gmail.com>
To: "Barb MacLeod" <@austin.rr.com>
Cc:
Aztlan@lists.famsi.org
Also, it might be helpful to look at Erik Valazquez Garcia's "The Maya Flood Myth and the Decapitation of the Cosmic Caiman" found at the
Mesoweb website:
http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publication ... lood_e.pdf,
where he discusses the Temple XIX passage that Barb references, as well as other passages that discuss floods and the flow of blood.
Elaine Schele
On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Barb MacLeod <@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Here's a bit of information about the root /hay/ in Yukatek Maya:
>
> It is historically /h/-initial rather than /j/-initial, according to the Motul Dictionary, and thus it is not cognate with /jay/ meaning 'thin', 'stretched out'.
The Motul entry is <haycabal, haycabil>: 'destruicion o asolamiento y diluvio general con que fue destruido y asolado el mundo'.
>
> Other Motul entries such as <haay cimi u alakob> 'todo mi ganado y mis aves se murieron' suggest that it does not refer specifically to flooding
but rather to general destruction and widespread mortality ('gran mortandad').
However, there seems to be a persistent association with destructive floods.
In the Cordemex (p. 190) under <hayah> one finds multiple examples suggesting that /hay/ is an intransitive root (<hayi winik>) and is transitivized with causative /-(e)s/; it also forms compounds with verbs and nouns (<hay kimil>, <hay kab>, also on p.190) suggesting an attributive function,
and at times it behaves as a noun, as in Tozzer's form <haiyokocab>, analyzable as /ha(a)y yok'ol kab/ 'destruction over the earth'.
>
> Thompson is correct in his understanding of the simpler terms <haycabal> and <haycabil>, which can be analyzed as ha(ay)-kab-il/-al 'earth-destruction' plus an abstractive suffix producing '(the general concept of) earth destruction'.
>
> As for any epigraphic references to floods, we have of course the scene on p. 74 of the Dresden Codex depicting what has been thought to be a great end-of-world flood. The terms 'black sky' and 'black earth' appear in the text above, which opens with an unknown verb that may be "watery". Perhaps someone has deciphered it?
>
> And on pages 68-77 of David Stuart's (2005) The Inscriptions from Temple XIX at Palenque there is discussion of a primordial crocodile sacrifice featuring another undeciphered "watery" verb, referring in this case to the flowing blood of the beast. Perhaps this may be a flood reference, but the verb in question is followed by 'u-CH'ICH'/K'IK' -le: /'u-ch'ich'el/k'ik'-el/ 'his blood'.
>
> Barb MacLeod
>
> *************************************************
> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:59:34 -0500
> From: "Hoopes, John W" <@ku.edu>
> Subject: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
> To: <
aztlan@lists.famsi.org>
>
> In 1907, Tozzer recorded a story near Valladolid, Yucatan in which there is a narrative of four successive creations and their destructions by floods. In writing of the initial creation, he notes,
"This first epoch was separated from the second by a flood called _haiyokocab_ (water over the earth)."
>
> Tozzer, Alfred (1907) A comparative study of the Mayas and the Lacandones. Arch. Inst. Am. Rep. of Fellow in Am. Arch., 1902-05, N.Y.
> (The quote is cited in Tozzer 1941, ff. 633, as from pp. 153-4).
>
> In "Maya History and Religion," Thompson speculated that "haiyokocab" was "comparable to the terms _haycabal_ and _haycabil_ used in the Books of Chilam Balam" (1970: 341).
>
> 1) What is the specific etymology and meaning of "haiyokocab"?
> 2) Is it a typical name for a flood or a name for a special kind of flood?
> 3) Was Thompson correct about comparable terms in the Books of Chilam Balam?
> 2) Is there any epigraphic evidence for related terms in pre-Contact literature?
>
> Thanks!
>
> John Hoopes
> .......................................................
Forwarded Message: Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
Sunday, November 1, 2009 10:29 PM
From: "Barb MacLeod" @austin.rr.com>
To:
Aztlan@lists.famsi.org
Hi, Elaine,
Indeed, this paper by Erik Velasquez Garcia is excellent, and I should have mentioned it as well, but was headed out the door to the airport. It's well worth further thought, particularly as John Hoopes has raised the question of whether *any* post-contact sources referring to a flood, including Landa, are untainted with Christian doctrine.
Velasquez-Garcia's paper makes the best case thus far for a pre-contact Maya flood/destruction belief, so perhaps we can have a fruitful conversation about his ideas.
My contributions to the discussion are more likely to be linguistic and epigraphic.
Barb MacLeod
*******************
Also, it might be helpful to look at Erik Valazquez Garcia's "The Maya Flood Myth and the Decapitation of the Cosmic Caiman" found at the Mesoweb website:
http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publication ... lood_e.pdf,
where he discusses the Temple XIX passage that Barb references, as well as other passages that discuss floods and the flow of blood.
Elaine Schele
> .......................................................
Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
Monday, November 2, 2009 7:00 AM
From: "Michael Grofe" <@gmail.com>
To:
aztlan@lists.famsi.org
Hi John,
Thanks for your posting.
To answer the first part of your question, the etymology of /haiyokocab/ in Yucatec is fairly straightforward,
and precisely what Tozzer gives as "water over the earth", though /yokol cab/ also refers to 'the world':
/ha/ = 'water'
/yook'ol/ = 'over/on top of' from the adverbial root /ok'/, meaning 'above,
over, on top of'
/kab'/ = 'earth'
For reference, David Bolles has an excellent online source for Yucatec on FAMSI:
/ha/:
http://www.famsi.org/reports/96072/h/h_haadzal.htm
/ok'/ here as /ok/
http://www.famsi.org/reports/96072/o/odz_okolnil.htm
/yok'ol/ here as /yokol/
http://www.famsi.org/reports/96072/ydic3a.htm
/kab'/ here as /cab/:
http://www.famsi.org/reports/96072/c/cab.htm
As for your other questions, under the /yokol/ entries, you can also see
that /yokol cab/ refers to 'the world', so a flood over the whole world
would indeed seem to refer to these mythological events,
rather than to ordinary flooding,
which would be /chup cabil/ or /bul cabil/:
http://www.famsi.org/reports/96072/ch/chunb_chuy.htm
Regarding Thompson's association between /haiyokocab/ and /haycabil/,
they may be related in terms of their reference to mythological world destruction, but not necessarily by flood. Bolles gives a definition of
/haycabil/ as "destruction of the world, mostly through hurricane. From hay
= flatten and cab = world.":
http://www.famsi.org/reports/96072/h/hay_heancil.htm
I'm not aware of any mentioning of either of these exact words in the inscriptions, though the flood narrative from the Palenque Temple XIX
platform, south side, is most likely related.
There is a repeated, undeciphered glyph in this text (F4 and F5) that refers to a deluge of blood following the decapitation of the Celestial Caiman.
See Erik Velásquez García's article about this and other flood narratives, including the scene on Dreden pg. 74 and the Chilam Balam texts:
http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publication ... lood_e.pdf
Cheers,
Michael Grofe
> .......................................................
> From: "Hoopes, John W" <@ku.edu>
> To: <
aztlan@lists.famsi.org>
> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:59:34 -0500
> Subject: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth
> In 1907, Tozzer recorded a story near Valladolid, Yucatan in which there
> is a narrative of four successive creations and their destructions by
> floods. In writing of the intial creation, he notes, "This first epoch
> was separated from the second by a flood called _haiyokocab_ (water over
> the earth)."
>
> Tozzer, Alfred (1907) A comparative study of the Mayas and the
> Lacandones. Arch. Inst. Am. Rep. of Fellow in Am. Arch., 1902-05, N.Y.
> (The quote is cited in Tozzer 1941, ff. 633, as from pp. 153-4).
>
> In "Maya History and Religion," Thompson speculated that "haiyokocab"
> was "comparable to the terms _haycabal_ and _haycabil_ used in the Books
> of Chilam Balam" (1970: 341).
>
> 1) What is the specific etymology and meaning of "haiyokocab"?
> 2) Is it a typical name for a flood or a name for a special kind of
> flood?
> 3) Was Thompson correct about comparable terms in the Books of Chilam
> Balam?
> 2) Is there any epigraphic evidence for related terms in pre-Contact
> literature?
>
> Thanks!
>
> John Hoopes
> .......................................................
Monday, November 2, 2009 11:23 AM
From:"Prudence M. Rice" <@siu.edu>
To:
aztlan@lists.famsi.org
So could this phrase be the meaning of the so-called "star wars" glyph that shows droplets over an earth sign?
Dr. Prudence M. Rice
Professor of Anthropology and Distinguished Scholar
Associate Vice Chancellor for Research, and
Director, Office of Research Development and Administration
Southern Illinois University Carbondale
Carbondale, IL 62901-4709
.......................................................