The Iliad: How Much Fact - How Much Fiction

[Minimalist]

Livius records the tale.

Book 1: The Earliest Legends

[1.1]To begin with, it is generally admitted that after the capture of Troy, whilst the rest of the Trojans were massacred, against two of them - Aeneas and Antenor - the Achivi refused to exercise the rights of war, partly owing to old ties of hospitality, and partly because these men had always been in favour of making peace and surrendering Helen. Their subsequent fortunes were different. Antenor sailed into the furthest part of the Adriatic, accompanied by a number of Enetians who had been driven from Paphlagonia by a revolution, and after losing their king Pylaemenes before Troy were looking for a settlement and a leader. The combined force of Enetians and Trojans defeated the Euganei, who dwelt between the sea and the Alps and occupied their land. The place where they disembarked was called Troy, and the name was extended to the surrounding district; the whole nation were called Veneti. Similar misfortunes led to Aeneas becoming a wanderer, but the Fates were preparing a higher destiny for him. He first visited Macedonia, then was carried down to Sicily in quest of a settlement; from Sicily he directed his course to the Laurentian territory. Here, too, the name of Troy is found, and here the Trojans disembarked, and as their almost infinite wanderings had left them nothing but their arms and their ships, they began to plunder the neighbourhood. The Aborigines, who occupied the country, with their king Latinus at their head, came hastily together from the city and the country districts to repel the inroads of the strangers by force of arms.

From this point there is a twofold tradition. According to the one, Latinus was defeated in battle, and made peace with Aeneas, and subsequently a family alliance. According to the other, whilst the two armies were standing ready to engage and waiting for the signal, Latinus advanced in front of his lines and invited the leader of the strangers to a conference. He inquired of him what manner of men they were, whence they came, what had happened to make them leave their homes, what were they in quest of when they landed in Latinus' territory. When he heard that the men were Trojans, that their leader was Aeneas, the son of Anchises and Venus, that their city had been burnt, and that the homeless exiles were now looking for a place to settle in and build a city, he was so struck with the noble bearing of the men and their leader, and their readiness to accept alike either peace or war, that he gave his right hand as a solemn pledge of friendship for the future. A formal treaty was made between the leaders and mutual greetings exchanged between the armies. Latinus received Aeneas as a guest in his house, and there, in the presence of his tutelary deities, completed the political alliance by a domestic one, and gave his daughter in marriage to Aeneas. This incident confirmed the Trojans in the hope that they had reached the term of their wanderings and won a permanent home. They built a town, which Aeneas called Lavinium after his wife. In a short time a boy was born of the new marriage, to whom his parents gave the name of Ascanius.

[Forum Monk]

WHAT ABOUT US ENGLISH!!!

What exactly is "english", Digit. Besides, aren't you welsh?

[Minimalist]

The announcement of the genetic study which Monk referenced above.

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Etrus ... y_999.html

Herodotus' theory, much criticised by subsequent historians, states that the Etruscans emigrated from the ancient region of Lydia, on what is now the southern coast of Turkey, because of a long-running famine. Half the population was sent by the king to look for a better life elsewhere, says his account, and sailed from Smyrna (now Izmir) until they reached Umbria in Italy.

"We think that our research provides convincing proof that Herodotus was right", says Professor Piazza, "and that the Etruscans did indeed arrive from ancient Lydia.

Now Lydia is the next "region" south from "Troy," centering around the cities of Smyrna, Sardis and Ephesus but still....pretty damn close. It doesn't take too much imagination to see a group chased out of their homeland by the attacks of the Sea Peoples and fleeing West, does it?

[Minimalist]

Besides, aren't you welsh?

I thought Digit was mainly "old?"

[Forum Monk]

Livius records the tale.

Interestingly (at least I think), Latinus who was considered indigenous to Italy when Aeneas arrived, was descended from a line which embarked on a far earlier migration, and if one carries those lines back far enough, it was the same line of people who also settled and built Troy. So, it seems Aeneas and Latinus were distantly related and likely didn't know it.

[Digit]

Olde English Min!
No Monk, I'm and immigrant, what the Welsh call an 'incomer'.
English? Well there Angles, Saxons, Danes, Jutes, Latins, Norman French, Modern French, Dutch, Irish and recently half of Europe in there somewhere.
Mongrols, that's what we are.
I feel one of Min's pics coming on!

[Ishtar]

Don't forget the Poles, Dig.

[john]

Don't forget the Poles, Dig.

All -

Don't forget the (seaborne) "Mongrolian" invasion of all the continents over the last 500k years.

Just pick the particular hill you enjoy the most.



Boats, Hematite


john

[Digit]

Poles! How could I forget them?
Mind you Ish if the economy continues in its present direction we may get our country back.
Then if the Tories remove some of the dafter bits of the 'Human Rights Act' we may also be able to remove a few undisirables as well.

[Ishtar]

Livius records the tale.

... and gave his daughter in marriage to Aeneas. This incident confirmed the Trojans in the hope that they had reached the term of their wanderings and won a permanent home. They built a town, which Aeneas called Lavinium after his wife. In a short time a boy was born of the new marriage, to whom his parents gave the name of Ascanius.

This account is consistent with Virgil's account, the one Geoffrey Ashe based his on in the Mythology of the British Isles. I didn't mention this bit as I thought it would over-complicate the account, but now I see that it is entirely relevant, and could be a harbinger of the Moses story:

Virgil introduces Aeneas's son, Ascanius. He takes the family no further, apart from a brief foreshadowing, but in Britain it is told how Ascanius had a son Silvius. Soothsayers predicted that Silvius's son would be the death of his parents, though later he would give rise to high honour. This son was called Brutus. His mother, Silvius's wife, died giving birth to him, and when he grew up, he accidently shot Silvius with an arrow while out hunting.

Banished from Italy, Brutus went to Greece. The Greek King Pandrasus had several thousand slaves descended from Trojan prisoners....

... and so this is where we came in. Brutus wasn't originally part of these Trojan slaves whose ancestors had become prisoners of the Greek king, presumbably after the war. Brutus just turned up there while he was in exile. Maybe he was taken captured and taken prisoner...we are not told. But he organised the revolt.

So Brutus led these slaves to a new promised land ... .

Brutus ritually consulted the goddess [Helen] and she appeared to him in a dream and told him of another island, a far greater one, out in the ocean towards the sunset.....There they could establish a new Troy, and father a dynasty of kings would become the most powerful on earth.

Land of milk and honey?

[Ishtar]

The timeline of this legend does not work me, however, as I have the famous destruction of Troy, the one of greek legend, occuring in 1183 BC and Carthage was founded some 300 years later. So how did these guys leave Troy and sail to Carthage?

In any case, there are often truths lurking under the surface of the legends.

I don't usually think there is much historical truth in myths - certainly Mespotomian ones, which I think are mainly allegories for metaphysical truths and practises.

But this story, imo, looks to be different, with so many of the great Greek writers writing about it and the legendary Trojan descendants being so ingrained in the mythologies of so many countries.

I wouldn't be put off, either, by Carthage being 'founded' 300 years later. Do you mean that this is the dating of the remaining ruins? Because there must have been more temporary structures before that. Carthage is too well positioned strategically not to have been occupied at the earliest opportunity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage

Question of Carthage

The historical study of Carthage is problematic. Because its culture and records were destroyed by the Romans at the end of the Third Punic War, very few Carthaginian primary historical sources survive. There are a few ancient translations of Punic texts into Greek and Latin, as well as inscriptions on monuments and buildings discovered in North Africa.[1] However, the main sources are Greek and Roman historians, including Livy, Polybius, Appian, Cornelius Nepos, Silius Italicus, Plutarch, Dio Cassius, and Herodotus.

The cultures of these authors were in competition and often in conflict with Carthage. Greek cities contested with Carthage for Sicily,[2] and the Romans fought three Punic Wars against Carthage.[3] Inevitably, accounts of Carthage by outsiders include significant bias.

Recent excavation has brought much more primary material to light. Some of these finds contradict or confirm aspects of the traditional picture of Carthage, but much of the material is still ambiguous.

[Ishtar]

Poles! How could I forget them?
Mind you Ish if the economy continues in its present direction we may get our country back.

Dig, if the economy continues in its present direction, I will be dead. Nobody wants to take on freelancers in this kind of climate.

But as to the Poles... I have to say, I find them an absolute delight. It's such a pleasant change to be served your morning cappucino by someone who is enthusiastic about life and greets you politely but warmly. My pleasure in this is only tempered by a slight embarrassment ... that they are probably a doctor or lawyer in their own country, and so shouldn't have to be serving coffee to the likes of me.

[Forum Monk]

Dido is generally credited (in the old accounts) with founding Carthage. I recall she did not necessarily build it from scratch but enlarged it, named it, and started it towards its eventual glory. In classical greek histories, two events mark the dates from time is reckoned, the fall of Troy c. 1183 BC and the reinstitution of the olympiad 776 BC. Now it is possible Roman writers may be biased against Carthage. 'Carthago delenda est' (Carthage must be destroyed) became a creed during the third Punic war. But - the roman historian, Julius Solinus stated the destruction of Carthage took place in the 737th year of its existence. Destroyed in 146BC, therefore built in 883BC. Timaeus said it was founded 38 years before the first Olympiad, so 814BC. Velleius Paterculus says it lasted 667 years, so 813BC. But many other classical writers, including Herodotus indicate the 883/884BC date. Archaeology confirms a 9th century date.

[Minimalist]

There was probably a Phonecian trading post at the site for centuries prior to the founding of Carthage, itself. It not only has one of the finest natural harbors in the Mediterranean but it sits at the crossroads of the sea lanes from the Levant to Spain and the route to Sardinia/Corsica/Sicily and from there to Italy and the Southern coast of Gaul (Massilia) founded as a Greek colony.

The strategic significance of the location was simply unmistakable.

[kbs2244]

Not only that, but wasn’t it huge wheat exporting location?
In earlier, more friendly time, virtually feeding Rome?
I think I remember reading that the Romans actually went out and spread salt over the fields to poison them in order to prevent Carthage from regaining its importance.