Oh Christ!!

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:54 pm

You'll enjoy this Min. I wish I had taken notes.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:13 pm

You remember how he felt about Arks!

Yep, I half watched the same show tonight since I've seen it before. I know Arch won't like it but I thought it was lacking also.

Dont't miss the discussion after the show. The very last is a panel of religious scholars that is pretty boring.

Post by **Minimalist** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:16 pm

Those people were born boring.

(The leaps of logic that Jacobovici makes are indeed staggering.)

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:12 am

On balance Simcha was not as much of a dickhead as he usually is when a camera gets on him.

Still...I found myself agreeing with the bible-thumper who made the allusion to the chain. Too many If-Then statements without enough support for the "if."

It reminded me of something that I noticed Von Daniken doing many years ago. He would make a statement, talk about it for a while and then say "now that we have that settled let's move on to the next step." Well, he really "settled" very little.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:25 am

Does any one know if Jacobovici's Jesus Tomb documentatry aired anywhere other than the U.S.? Have our international friends seen it yet?

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:09 am

The programme is due to be aired over here shortly Monk, not sure yet exactly when but no doubt the fanfare will be loud enough for you hear it over you side.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:55 am

I have begun some research and first I am looking at the Ted Koppel panel who critiqued the program.

Here is Professor Emeritus, William Devers, U. of Arizona:
He was the more soft spoken gentlman on the left. IMO he is very well qualified and experienced in Near Eastern archaeology. He seems to have been very active at excavations at Gezer. Now retired, he seems to be concerned about misrepresentation of antiquities and the value of the hebrew scriptures.

His qualifications -
http://w3fp.arizona.edu/neareast/dever.htm

An example of some his emphasis -
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20259

From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_G._Dever

In retirement, Dever has become a frequent author on questions relating to the historicity of the Bible. He is scathing in his dismissal of "minimalists" who deny any historical value to the Biblical accounts. However he is far from being a supporter of Biblical literalism either. Instead he has written

"I am not reading the Bible as Scripture... I am in fact not even a theist. My view all along—and especially in the recent books—is first that the biblical narratives are indeed 'stories', often fictional and almost always propagandistic, but that here and there they contain some valid historical information. That hardly makes me a 'maximalist.'"[2]
and

"Archaeology as it is practiced today must be able to challenge, as well as confirm, the Bible stories. Some things described there really did happen, but others did not. The Biblical narratives about Abraham, Moses, Joshua and Solomon probably reflect some historical memories of people and places, but the "larger than life" portraits of the Bible are unrealistic and contradicted by the archaeological evidence".[3]

.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:16 am

Jonathan L. Reed - was the more outspoken panel member who rattled Simcha with the "archaeoporn" characterisation of the film.

He has a seminary degree and has written several books which often appear on the lists of chrisitian book sellers.
IMO he is very experienced in field archaelology and currently is director of the Sepphoris excavation.

http://www.ulv.edu/academicaffairs/facu ... l?u_id=102

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/exc ... _Jesus.htm

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16752

Outside of academic circles he seems more known for his books and in my opinion is experienced at defending and challenging claims regarding Jesus, his followers and the 1st century near eastern political and religous climate.

.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:47 am

My view all along—and especially in the recent books—is first that the biblical narratives are indeed 'stories', often fictional and almost always propagandistic,

What's really odd about the Dever - Israel Finkelstein relationship is that they agree on the big stuff and fight like cats and dogs over minor points.

Dever did indulge in a long diatribe against the "Minimalist School" of Davies, Whitelam, Thompson, etc. in one of his books however, having now read Davies, it seems that their worst sin is to downplay the role of archaeology and simply stick to the biblical texts themselves.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:05 am

Patina Testing.
It seems the terminology "patina fingerprint" is unique to this documentary since it does exist apart from the context of Jacobovici. It seems patina testing is quite common and is not new technology. The question is, how reliable is it. Probably very, since it is really an examination by electron microscope and spectrometer. The reliability issues IMO arrise depending on how and where the samples are collected.

The alledged "James the brother of Jesus" ossuary discussed in the Jacobovici documentary is an example of how results can be conflicting and inconclusive. The IAA (Israel Antquities Authority) tests show that the patina in the inscription did not match the patina on the rest of the box; evidence of a forgery. Whereas, subsequent tests in Canada have supposedly come to another conclusion.

In any case, the James ossuary should be considered irrelevent to the discussion of the Jesus tomb as its authenticity is yet to be confirmed.

Here are links discussing it authenticity unrelated to the documentary:

The patina of the inscription was tested against the rest of the box
http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-03/bonebox.html

Article defending the James ossuary and its inscription as genuine
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/128/story_12845_1.html

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:39 am

While arguing over the patina is interesting as a scientific discussion it is important to remember that when the police broke into Oded Golan's warehouse they found an entire production facility for forging antiquities as well as the "Joash Tablet" which was another major "find."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ossu.htm

Oden Golan is the current owner of the ossuary, and was the individual who introduced the Yoash inscription to the world. He was arrested on 2003-JUL-22 by Israeli police on suspicion of forging and dealing in fake antiquities. 18 "In court, police unveiled equipment they said was found in Golan's home, including stencils, stones and partly completed forgeries."

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:54 pm

Liars and cheats deverve what they get. However, why would a guy resort to forging something so controverisal and astounding? In the US, the most successful counterfeiters, produced fake one or five dollar bills. Not hundred and larger denominations. Any hope of success in the forgery game would require small, low key fakes. Otherwise, your 'career' will come into the spotlight too soon.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:59 pm

Success breeds confidence and that tends to lead to over confidence Monk.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:09 pm

For better or worse, I think Simcha has succeeded in doing a couple of things.

1.He has produced a high profile and controversial movie that will be be aired a number of times.

2.He has ensured that this tomb will recieve the archaeological attention that it deserves, after a quarter of a century.

3.He may have solved the mystery of the James ossuary and gotten some fellow off the hook on forgery charges.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:25 pm

Forum Monk wrote:Liars and cheats deverve what they get. However, why would a guy resort to forging something so controverisal and astounding? In the US, the most successful counterfeiters, produced fake one or five dollar bills. Not hundred and larger denominations. Any hope of success in the forgery game would require small, low key fakes. Otherwise, your 'career' will come into the spotlight too soon.

Money.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... erpom.html

In 2004, several indictments were handed down by investigators who were in the process of breaking up several antiquity forgery rings. Among those indicted was Oded Golan, who owned the ivory pomegranate and another artifact declared to be a forgery, a stone burial chest (ossuary) thought to hold the remains of James, the brother of Jesus. In 2003, Israel's Antiquities Authority said that although the ossurary itself was over 2,000 years old and authentic, its inscription, which carried the words "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus," was added in modern times.

Understand that there is not a single artifact from Solomon's Temple anywhere in the world, in spite of nearly 200 years of archaeological research in the area. Likewise, there is not a single bona fide first century historical reference to Jesus or any artifact associated with him.

Oded Golan, in as you suggest, a very short space of time, somehow managed to associate himself with the pomegranate of Solomon's temple, the Joash (Jehoash) tablet (purportedly to be some sort of restoration work on the temple) and then the James ossuary. All of these fill in embarassing gaps in the historical record for believers, all of them are associated with a man who had the equipment needed for forging antiquities, a man who is always a little hazy on how he acquired them in the first place.

If you want to start talking about thelaw of probabilities how probable is it that one man would suddenly acquire 3 such treasures?

It would be like a counterfeiter saying "don't worry about those...THIS bill is real!"