Dragons!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:14 pm

I have never felt personally that the Bible spoke of an actual Dragon

not an actual one but allegorically in Revelations.

There have been many books, TV shows and documentaries about Dragons

what caught my eye in this thread was the poster who mentioned watching a show on it. i saw one on discovery channel asia a couple months ago and it was just horrid as it took the 'what if' route and dragged it out for 2 hours.

the acting was horrible, the writing was stupid and the presentation was less than what was advertised. (but discovery channel has been getting into misleading advertising lately---they do the same for american chopper)

i think i watched the first hour before turning it off.

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:40 am

I have never felt personally that the Bible spoke of an actual Dragon

Revelation 12
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

this is the last book of the new testament
the first book of the old testament has
Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman: 'What is this thou hast done?' And the woman said: 'The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.' 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent: 'Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

what form the serpent took up til that point is unknown although obviously from the biblical text it must have been an animal used as a food source "cursed art thou from among all cattle"
you have to go to earlier texts than the late in the day biblical one to find out
up til that point the creature known as the serpent had all the same characteristics i.e. evil, opposed to god,
but, and this is a big but, the serpent was way too large to fit into a tree

War Arrow · Post by **War Arrow** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:35 am

I suspect there might be a case for a gentically hard-wired fear of certain animals, and snakes and spiders are often cited as prime candidates on the grounds that it's probably quite sensible to be wary of potentially poisonous beasties - personally I'm not completely convinced.
There was something on TV a few months back called (I think) The Anatomy of Disgust (and sorry but that's a close as I have to link or qualification at present) in which it was shown that very young children learn disgust from their elders - the physical revulsion felt upon encountering human poo is apparently not automatic. Even more uselessly, I can't actually remember what was said about dangerous animals.
Anyway, I first came across the 'hard-wired fear of snakes idea' at a lecture entitled 'Religion & Darwinism' given by Prof. Robert A. Hinde (Voltaire Lecture, Dec. '97 - British Humanist Association) and remember thinking at the time that there seemed to be some contradictions. Notably eastern dragons (if we're taking them as snakes with knobs on) which (correct me if I'm wrong) carry a whole spectrum of associations including many of a positive or favourable disposition. Similarly in (sorry everyone, here we go again) preHispanic Mexico wherein serpents were earthly manifestations of the sacred, again with all manner of associated connotations as we see in the names Quetzalcoatl (Feathered Serpent representing a union of the heavenly and earthly planes), maquizcoatl (double-headed serpent, scathing term for a gossip or slanderous person), Cihuacoatl (serpent woman, both a fearsome warrior Goddess and the title of Tenochtitlan's first minister who was, oddly, a bloke). There's more. Lots more. Obviously.
Anyway, despite how it might seem. I'm undecided on this one. The Mexica regarded the sacred as something beyond acceptable, daily experience, therefore the more monsterous or unacceptable something was, the more sacred it was thought to be - hence the piety of priests being illustrated by their refusal to wash. Ever.
So do sacred serpents disprove or even reinforce the notion of hard-wired fear of certain animals?
I have no idea.
Further to this point, I understand that for genetically obvious reasons we tend to be better disposed towards things that resemble us. Humanity will generally look after something with two eyes, hair and a flat face (human child, pekinese, whatever) than something that strays too far from the hominid template (reptiles, Daleks, Erich Von Daniken etc.)

Barracuda · Post by **Barracuda** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:27 pm

OK. I agree the discussion on "hardwiring" is inconclusive. I figured it would be.

Any other theories on why the basic dragon concept is so universal in such geographic distance locales as South America, Asia, and Europe?

If it were just South America and Asia, I would think it was a big snake thing, due to huge Pythons and Anacondas. The dragon could be a combination of huge snakes and Alligators or Caiman, but I doubt Europe ever had snakes that big, and they never had crocodilians.

BTW: You guys ever see the photo of the Python that died trying to eat the Alligator in the Everglades?

War Arrow · Post by **War Arrow** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:34 pm

Barracuda wrote:I doubt Europe ever had snakes that big, and they never had crocodilians.

I have no idea, but that's a very, very good point. Middle ages dragons imagery would, I imagine, be available on import but earlier than that I couldn't say. How far back does dragon imagery appear in Europe? The Vikings? Earlier?

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:48 pm

Any other theories on why the basic dragon concept is so universal in such geographic distance locales as South America, Asia, and Europe?

Didn't Von Daniken speculate that primitive man watched high flying aircraft leave contrails or something? It's been a long time since I read his stuff but I seem to recall something like that.

As they would not have had the technical language to describe a jet in flight they reduced it to imagery from their own minimal language skills.

But...of course....that's ridiculous.....I guess.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:06 pm

Middle ages dragons imagery would, I imagine, be available on import but earlier than that I couldn't say. How far back does dragon imagery appear in Europe

i am not sure but i read or heard of one theory that the term for dragon in the middle ages often refered to dinosaurs that were still living. (not my theory). one reason why they are extinct today because it was a sport to just hunt them.

much like other wild animals were hunted down just for a trophy in the previous century as a test for bravery and courage. i wouldn't putit past ancient man to do the same thing for the same reason.

dinosaurs were huge, what better test than to go out and kill one of them to prove manhood?

You guys ever see the photo of the Python that died trying to eat the Alligator in the Everglades?

yes and i hear there were shoes for everyone {ha}

Barracuda · Post by **Barracuda** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:01 pm

OK, Arch is down with the HSS living with dinosaurs.....Allrightythen....

But a somewhat related theory is that people in the middle ages found dinosaur bones and thought they were dragon bones.

As far as the history of the dragon in Europe. Beowulf come to mind. The Vikings had Dragon heads on the bowsprits of their ships.

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:03 pm

OK, Arch is down with the HSS living with dinosaurs.....Allrightythen....

We're trying to break him of that!

Barracuda · Post by **Barracuda** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:07 pm

A little thinking, and a little checking ,and I must admit that the Dragon did not seem show up in Europe until the middle ages.

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:16 pm

I seem to recall the Romans using a dragon as a military standard in the later Imperial period....for the cohorts not the legions (which remained an Eagle.)

CuriousGranny · Post by **CuriousGranny** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:37 pm

But...of course....that's ridiculous.....I guess.

No more ridiculous than real dragons flyin around the skies...

IMO there are many things yet undiscovered under the dirt...who is to say a real dragon won't be discovered one day? Of course it probably wont be the flying, fire spitting kind, but who knows?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:39 pm

OK, Arch is down with the HSS living with dinosaurs

i also do not agree with all the divisions of early man...but that is another story for another time...

i really have no problem with the concept of dragons being around since the earliest of time, superstition certainly isn't a modern invention.

besides but isn't it in man's nature to invent superbeings to overcome to give themselves confidence?

i.e.--superman and his foes comes to mind.

so why not invent a dragon whose conquering makes the conquerer reach the pinnacle of manhood and be a hero at the same time.

Manystones · Post by **Manystones** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:58 pm

archaeologist wrote:
OK, Arch is down with the HSS living with dinosaurs
i also do not agree with all the divisions of early man...but that is another story for another time...

Please, please Arch tell me you don't really believe dinosaurs and HSS were about at the same time?

Bewildered

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:06 pm

Please, please Arch tell me you don't really believe dinosaurs and HSS were about at the same time?

shall i disappoint him...or not??