correlation between shroud of turin and sudarium of oviedo

[grunabona246]

i'm interested in any comments from anyone on the apparently strong evidence of a correlation between the shroud of turin and the sudarium of oviedo. i am a gambler, and the odds against these two cloths having no relationship to the crucifixion of the same man are incalculable in my view.

[Minimalist]

In 1988 the shroud was carbon dated to the period of 1260-1390 AD.

http://www.livescience.com/history/0503 ... hroud.html

In 1988, the shroud cloth was radiocarbon dated by three different laboratories (at Zurich, Oxford, and the University of Arizona). The results were in close agreement and yield a date range of a.d. 1260–1390, about the time of the reported forger’s confession (ca. a.d. 1355).

[grunabona246]

In 1988 the shroud was carbon dated to the period of 1260-1390 AD.

http://www.livescience.com/history/0503 ... hroud.html

In 1988, the shroud cloth was radiocarbon dated by three different laboratories (at Zurich, Oxford, and the University of Arizona). The results were in close agreement and yield a date range of a.d. 1260–1390, about the time of the reported forger’s confession (ca. a.d. 1355).

first, that doesn't address the question. second, i doubt the accuracy of the carbon dating. third, the sudarium has a known history much older than that of the shroud.

[Minimalist]

If the shroud is a medieval forgery it is exceedingly unlikely that it would have any link at all to this other relic, though.

[grunabona246]

If the shroud is a medieval forgery it is exceedingly unlikely that it would have any link at all to this other relic, though.

same rare blood type on both cloths, similar pattern of blood and other bodily fluid stains on both cloths, same pollen from plants native to the middle east on both cloths, the list goes on.

i doubt forgery under these circumstances, given the state of scientific knowledge at the time the shroud was allegedy created. what forger could have known about the sudarium and matched properties with it so precisely?

[Minimalist]

From the same site, above.

In 1973, internationally known forensic serologists subjected the “blood” to a battery of tests—for chemical properties, species, blood grouping, etc. The substance lacked the properties of blood, instead containing suspicious, reddish granules.

· Subsequently, the distinguished microanalyst Walter McCrone identified the “blood” as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint and concluded that the entire image had been painted.

[Guest]

and the sudarium of oviedo

since i do not pay attention to anything that mentions the shroud of turin except years ago when it was the 'religious' fad of the year (and i was skeptical then).

i have never heard of this sudarium of oviedo. is there a link to get some background on that piece of cloth?

[Beagle]

Gruna, I need you to educate me somewhat about these two clothes. I personally have some feelings about the Shroud of Turin (and I'm not convinced about C14 dates either), but I don't think it can be equivicated to the Crucifiction.

Help us out and explain what your thinking is.

[grunabona246]

From the same site, above.

In 1973, internationally known forensic serologists subjected the “blood” to a battery of tests—for chemical properties, species, blood grouping, etc. The substance lacked the properties of blood, instead containing suspicious, reddish granules.

· Subsequently, the distinguished microanalyst Walter McCrone identified the “blood” as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint and concluded that the entire image had been painted.

it is my understanding numerous more recent tests have shown evidence for blood on the shroud. i know of no argument against blood on the sudarium.

i was an art major in school, and i am certain that no medieval artist could have painted the image on the shroud. i don't know how the image was created, but it is definitely not a painting.

the sudarium is known to have been in spain since the seventh or eighth century i believe. it is the correlation between it and the shroud that convinces me that both these religious artifacts are genuine, in that they were created at the same time, and in the same place, by the same basic process, which was not artificial.

i am not a scientist, but i know that i was far ahead of scientists in the fifties, although just a boy, regarding an area of interest i had at that time. i concluded then that dinosaurs were not extinct in that birds were living dinosaurs. my opinion held absolutely no weight with anyone at the time, so i am amused that scientists now seem to be agreeing with me after all these years.

i am not saying the shroud and sudarium prove the validity of the new testament story of the crucifixion of jesus christ. i will go so far as to say they should be given great weight when considering the question of such validity.

[grunabona246]

and the sudarium of oviedo

since i do not pay attention to anything that mentions the shroud of turin except years ago when it was the 'religious' fad of the year (and i was skeptical then).

i have never heard of this sudarium of oviedo. is there a link to get some background on that piece of cloth?

the sudarium is said to be the cloth placed over the face of jesus when he was taken down from the cross.

the bible mentions two cloths in connection with the aftermath of the crucifixion.

[grunabona246]

Gruna, I need you to educate me somewhat about these two clothes. I personally have some feelings about the Shroud of Turin (and I'm not convinced about C14 dates either), but I don't think it can be equivicated to the Crucifiction.

Help us out and explain what your thinking is.

it is my thinking these two cloths are consistent with the new testament story of the crucifixion of jesus christ.

[marduk]

the catholic church who owns the shorud of Turin haven't declared it a holy relic yet
funny that

[tj]

How rare, exactly, is the blood type on the sudarium? I seriously doubt the odds are incalculable.

edit:
We had better collect some more information.

The blood type will, of course, need to be constrained to the middle eastern folks that were alive at the time.

How many people were crucified in the general area within a few years of the supposed date of crucifixion?

How many of those crucified were beat about the head enough to require the wrapping?

How prevalent was the use of that material for clothmaking at the time?

[Minimalist]

There was a veritable cottage industry producing holy relics in Palestine from the time of Constantine onward. The churches of Europe are full of them.

[tj]

We'll have to factor that in.

I suspect that by the time we are done I will have to reverse my position and declare that, indeed, the odds are incalculable.