correlation between shroud of turin and sudarium of oviedo

[Minimalist]

How many people were crucified in the general area within a few years of the supposed date of crucifixion?

The Great Revolt of 66 AD was put down in 70.

I suppose the answer to your question is "all that the Romans could catch."

[marduk]

Lord Percy "i have in my hand a true holy relic, tis the finger bone of our lord Jesus christ, Edmund you stand amazed"
Edmund Blackadder "I am i thought they only came in boxes of ten"

[Guest]

the bible mentions two cloths in connection with the aftermath of the crucifixion.

you will have to cite chapter and verse on that as i just checked all four crucifixtion accounts and not one mentions two cloths. one talks about strips of linen while the rest just say linen.

it is my thinking these two cloths are consistent with the new testament story of the crucifixion of jesus christ

i am skeptical about that but you have to ask yourself, what do these cloths proove? what benefit to faith and salvation do these cloths provide?

[Minimalist]

Arch is correct about the gospels but forgot to check the so-called Apocryphal texts.... you know, the ones that the committee didn't allow in to the NT.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:5YY_ ... =clnk&cd=1

Frequent reference in early Christian writings [is made] to the use of linen clothing for the dead.In certain Apocrypha there is a strong insistence on this. These accounts at least give an indication of the mind and outlook of the period in which they were written. In the Acts of John (middle of the second century)... from the account of the burial of John... it is said "We brought a linen cloth and spread it upon him... The Acts of Thomas (third century), relate that the brethren brought beautiful robes and much fair linen. Certain Apocrypha mention that the soul was clad in linen.

[grunabona246]

the bible mentions two cloths in connection with the aftermath of the crucifixion.

you will have to cite chapter and verse on that as i just checked all four crucifixtion accounts and not one mentions two cloths. one talks about strips of linen while the rest just say linen.

it is my thinking these two cloths are consistent with the new testament story of the crucifixion of jesus christ

i am skeptical about that but you have to ask yourself, what do these cloths proove? what benefit to faith and salvation do these cloths provide?

check john, the morning of the appearance to mary magdalene.

these two cloths have been venerated for centuries. if they both have type ab blood on them, which is often maintained, that in and of itself would be significant to me. if they both have pollen from a rare plant found only in the area where jesus christ is supposed to have lived and died, that would be significant to me. if the pattern of blood and lymph stains on both cloths is the same, that would be significant to me. and on and on.

i have not personally examined these two cloths, so i'm trying to put together sometimes conflicting information to form a conclusion i can be comfortable with. i have a feeling these cloths have been handed down for two thousand years from a real crucifixion, but i would like better evidence, if possible, so i can have more than a feeling about this.

if the existence of hunger presupposes the existence of bread, perhaps the existence of christianity presupposes the existence of jesus christ. whether jesus christ was the messiah is another question.

[Guest]

check john, the morning of the appearance to mary magdalene

okay i was only looking at the burial.

if they both have type ab blood on them

why would that be significant? no one knows what blood type Jesus had and anything else would just be speculation.

if they both have pollen from a rare plant found only in the area where jesus christ is supposed to have lived and died

this would only prove that it came from that area and not time period.

perhaps the existence of christianity presupposes the existence of jesus christ.

sorry but christianity came after Christ. the word Christian means 'like Christ or Christ-like' and you can't have the christian without the man to follow.

that is like the mennonites were existing before menno simons was old enough to start the sect.

[Minimalist]

There are plenty of examples of followers without a corporeal god, though.

Um....Yahweh comes to mind. As does Zeus.

[Starflower]

I found this when I googled sudarium

http://www.skepticalspectacle.com/discovery.htm

The same site had a list of all testing done on the shroud

http://www.skepticalspectacle.com/history04.htm

I make no claims, am only submitting info. Hope it is useful to you grunabona246.

oops the links are reversed.

[Minimalist]

hmmm....

And in 2002, during a restoration of the shroud, they had examined the area from which the samples were cut and had not found any visual evidence of mending.

But then no one else had noticed it, either. It took microscopy to see spliced threads where newer fibers were dyed to match age-yellowed fibers.

That seems a tad extreme for the Near East during the Middle Ages, doesn't it?

[grunabona246]

check john, the morning of the appearance to mary magdalene

okay i was only looking at the burial.

if they both have type ab blood on them

why would that be significant? no one knows what blood type Jesus had and anything else would just be speculation.

if they both have pollen from a rare plant found only in the area where jesus christ is supposed to have lived and died

this would only prove that it came from that area and not time period.

perhaps the existence of christianity presupposes the existence of jesus christ.

sorry but christianity came after Christ. the word Christian means 'like Christ or Christ-like' and you can't have the christian without the man to follow.

that is like the mennonites were existing before menno simons was old

enough to start the sect.

type ab is rare. the chances a forger would choose that blood type would be unlikely, and the chance he would pick blood of a rare type that would match blood on the sudarium would be extremely unlikely. the blood type of jesus is irrelevant to the question of forgery.

both cloths being at any point in the same area where jesus is supposed to have lived and died would be significant.

of course christianity came after christ. but why would there be such a thing as christianity if there were no christ? why would there be hunger if there were no bread?

[grunabona246]

There are plenty of examples of followers without a corporeal god, though.

Um....Yahweh comes to mind. As does Zeus.

i am interested in the question of the authenticity of alleged relics from the crucifixion of jesus christ, and in the authenticity of the new testament account or accounts of the crucifixion of jesus christ. whether jesus christ really existed is the question, and whether the romans crucified him is another interesting question. i suspect he existed, and they did crucify him. divinity is another question alltogether, and irrelevant if the man did not exist, and was not crucified.

[grunabona246]

I found this when I googled sudarium

http://www.skepticalspectacle.com/discovery.htm

The same site had a list of all testing done on the shroud

http://www.skepticalspectacle.com/history04.htm

I make no claims, am only submitting info. Hope it is useful to you grunabona246.

oops the links are reversed.

thank you, starflower.

[Minimalist]

If the man did not exist and was not crucified the relics must be frauds.

[grunabona246]

hmmm....

And in 2002, during a restoration of the shroud, they had examined the area from which the samples were cut and had not found any visual evidence of mending.

But then no one else had noticed it, either. It took microscopy to see spliced threads where newer fibers were dyed to match age-yellowed fibers.

That seems a tad extreme for the Near East during the Middle Ages,
doesn't it?

it does, indeed.

[grunabona246]

If the man did not exist and was not crucified the relics must be frauds.

of course that's true, but if the relics are genuine, then the man existed and was crucified.