the dominance of religion in the ancient world

[ReneDescartes]

I have always favored the thought that the ancient rock paintings might have had different functions combined and varying according to context and geographical localisation .We will probably never find out the complexity of it all as we have no looking glass traveling in time .So instead we use antropological techniques to explain these drawings .I favour the idea that they were part of an initiation rite in which the transition from boyhood to adulthood was marked ,the difference between a boy and a man laying in the responsibilities of a man to hunt and feed his clan .Unlike a modern classroom where we teach according to pedagogical rational methods these dwellings served also other functions like shamanistic rites , burials ,adressing the needs to understand the more more spiritual issues emerging with the growing conciousness of modern thinking .We still have problems with these issues after thenthousands of years .Hence the continuing succes of religion .LIkewise the neanderthaler,cro-magon and modern humans had trouble addressing the problem of termination of life itself . There was no Darwin at that time to make it understandable that fear of death is the primordial mechanism of evolution in all species.THose without this built-in mechanism could not survive as a species and would be wiped out incapable to flee or defend itself against the hasards of its surrounding .THis mechanism has climaxed in modern humans as we are the temporary result of evolution process for the time being ,accumulating and refining all these mechanisms into our genes and mental framework .As we are also social animals it is no more than logical that the thanatos and eros issues were celebrated in the cave-art in Europe .As for the australian examples,I think they were a different story .

[Guest]

you forgot women. as equals. and thats a whole 'nother argument.

how could i forget it, we aren't talking about that topic.

ancient people did not think like modren people

are you sure? do you have a link to back that claim up?

There was no Darwin at that time to make it understandable that fear of death is the primordial mechanism of evolution in all species

we are not going to go there. and i am sure they had a better understanding of deaththan you give them credit.

LIkewise the neanderthaler,cro-magon and modern humans had trouble addressing the problem of termination of life itself

if you are going to make a statement like this, please provide some sort of credible link to back it up. i do not think that modern man can handle death any better than those of the ancient world. in fact i would think they could handle it better since it may have been more of a constant companion than it is now.

[ReneDescartes]

quote Arch :if you are going to make a statement like this, please provide some sort of credible link to back it up. i do not think that modern man can handle death any better than those of the ancient world. in fact i would think they could handle it better since it may have been more of a constant companion than it is now.
Hello again Arch ,I am afraid you misunderstood me completely .Of course death was very predominant in those days,allways present in their lives as their environment was so hostile ,as well as their general life expectancy .How do you want me to back up this thinking .We are talking about a period in history without written sources.So I did my own bit of thinking here .I just applied rational thinking to it ,drawing from parallel thinking patterns in surviving primitive tribes nowadays.I've been amongst those primitive people (no negative connotation to the word primitive intended ) .SO what is wrong with finding evidence in antropology for you ? You can find also all the vidence for the survival of the fittest in nature around you .Next time you see a fly ,try to kill it with you bare handssquashing it on your desk and wonder why it escapes .Congratulations your first insight in the proces of evolution is now a fact .For some strange reasons it does not want to die ,however little its intelligence . If you try this experiment on a wasp you will find out on your expense that evolution has provided some species with more elaborated means of responding to danger .
So on the apex of evolution (or creation for those who do not wish to go along my line of reasoning ) we have the human species.Afraid to die and having a mind and some sort of intelligence to go with it .(except Dubya of course ) he will have trouble understanding that after he dies ,it is all over . It goes against everything in his genes. But yet his fate is sealed.All that came before him have died already .I don(t think there is any flaw in this reasonong and we can safely take it from there to consider what kind of answers were used to address this fear . So life had to go on after death .Another factor leading to the birth of religion during the beginnig hours of humanity was the absence of understanding nature around us.Thunder,lightning,volcanic eruptions,earthquakes,etc which still inspire awe in our minds could only be explained with simplistic reasoning implicating the belief of animated objects or spirits if not a form of surviving souls from the forefathers . If gods and spirits had the power to meddle with nature they must have had the power to help cure diseases,attract game when people had to be fed . Hence the cavern decorations .

[Guest]

Congratulations your first insight in the proces of evolution is now a fact .For some strange reasons it does not want to die

this is not an evolution topic so leave it out of here and by the way , that doesn't prove the theory.

[ReneDescartes]

Arch do not expect me to obey you when you tell me how to conduct an analysis .You started a topic about religious belief in ancient times .I think I am entitled to post in it as I feel I can contribute to make understandable why humans invented religion .I can also explain how religion gradualy became more and more complex and adressed new issues as the civilisation of hunters - food gatherers gave way to the first agraric societies .Probably not as good as Marduk as we are at that moment of history entering his playgarden ,but I am not afraid to give my personal opinion based on rational thinking .Meanwhile I would very much appreciate your view on my statements,providing they are founded on science .For once you are lucky ,the bible has a role to play here as we are debating a relevant topic for which it is a source .

[Guest]

You started a topic about religious belief in ancient times .

yes religious beliefs that were established at the time. since no ancient text refers to evolution in any form, it does not belong here nor is it a credible explanation when the ancients believed in no such theory nor even discussed it. for them creation, in their many forms, was the only way origin began.

I think I am entitled to post in it as I feel I can contribute to make understandable why humans invented religion

i don't care if you post but leave evolution out of it as it is not part of what we are talking about. the topic is about how everything is deemed to be a religious artifact by modern archaeologists not the invention of religion, not alternative theories of origin.

we have enough topics talking about evolution, i would like to explore this need to make the ancient world out to be secular 'holy rollers' at every opportunity that evidence appears.

this is a problem that needs to be discussed and dealt with because we are not getting the truth but too much interpretation without concrete facts to substantiate such actions. it skewers our perspective of the past,of ancient societies and leads us down paths that were not intended to be travelled and we are being subject to errors which should be corrected not intensified by more modern gibberish.

For once you are lucky ,the bible has a role to play here as we are debating a relevant topic for which it is a source

i am trying to leave the Bible out of this one as its record, though substantiates that people were religious in many forms, does not imply that the whole of ancient civilizations were completely dominated by false religions and that everything they did had a religious connotation.

they didn't follow God but that doesn't mean they all believed and practiced the state religion or that their lives were wrapped around their beliefs so tightly that they thought of nothing else.

we have a department store and in that store they have a discount section where you can by things for a buck or two. in that section they used to have figurines of african women who were topless.

if someone bought such a figurine, simply because they liked it, does that mean that whenthey put it on their shelf at home that they believed inthe goddess of fertility? no. i think we have too much over generalizations happening when we look at the past and it has nothing to do with other theories.

so lets explore this angle and leave evolution and origins to other topics, pplease.

[ReneDescartes]

Look Arch everything I posted is about dominance of the religious in the ancient world .When I spoke of evolution of course I mean the evolution of religion in ancient times.And of course darwininan evolution when referring to the fly and wasp .Only because there is a reason why religion wasi nvented . It did not come out of the blue you know .Religious dogmas were created and evolved according logical lines addressing not only the needs of humans seeking an answer to their fears for the afterlife but also more sociological problems like the structures and laws of societies.
If you think I am not playing according your rules ,lay out the boundaries of the topic yourself ,come forward with your hypothesis .

[ReneDescartes]

Quote Arch :ever since I read Spyridon Marinatos' daughter's comment, 'why does everything ancient have to be determined religious' (or close to that) i have been wanting to explore the the area of religious domination in the ancient world.

obviously this is not a christian topic but an examination of pre-christian religious life in the ancient world. so please don't get flippant and treat this seriously, plus i am not looking to turn this into a religious venue later on. i would like to explore what we know and what proof do we have. I have 3 books of ancient texts at home but i am not convinced they contain all the information we have that leads archaeologists in this direction.
what texts do we have that lead us to believe that religion was more dominant then than now? what leads us to believe that the ancient people did everything with a religious connotation? we in the modern world do not so why would the ancient world be any different? end quote.


Again show me where I went of topic .I am following your rules only to be attacked because my view is secular .But so is science .It always studies a religion based on rational thinking .Otherwise it would be called relgion .

[Guest]

obviously this is not a christian topic but an examination of pre-christian religious life in the ancient world

you probably thought this was your opening but evolution is not mentioned in ancient texts, nor does it supply the need or the thought for religion thus it does not belong here and is a non-entity.

it also doesn't explain why modern archaeologists and historians need to label everything as religious when they find something in their investigations.

[marduk]

it also doesn't explain why modern archaeologists and historians need to label everything as religious when they find something in their investigations.

ah i see why you posted this topic now
you are trying to claim that before christianity there was no progress because there was no real religion
the evidence says otherwise doesnt it

[Guest]

ah i see why you posted this topic now
you are trying to claim that before christianity there was no progress because there was no real religion
the evidence says otherwise doesnt it

no, not at all. i posted it to explore this need to over-generalize the past and label every thing associated with ancient civilizations with a religious brand.

[marduk]

no, not at all. i posted it to explore this need to over-generalize the past and label every thing associated with ancient civilizations with a religious brand.

no you didn't
you clearly started this thread so that at some point you could claim that christianity is responsible for all the progress we have made
when in fact because of the vatican it has stunted out progress for the last 1500 years
what church do you actually belong to anyway ?

[Guest]

you clearly started this thread so that at some point you could claim that christianity is responsible for all the progress we have made

read my initial post

[marduk]

i answered your first post in full in my first post with the actual facts but you chose not to believe it
this indicates that you already think you know the answer
so we're all waiting for the punchline
at some point you will claim that there was no religion in the ancient world that all the statues of gods were merely art and all the texts are just stories and then you will claim that the result is that we didn't get anywhere until christianity raised its ugly head
so
come on
we're all waiting to hear you say it

don't keep us all waiting now

[Guest]

so we're all waiting for the punchline
at some point you will claim that there was no religion in the ancient world that all the statues of gods were merely art and all the texts are just stories and then you will claim that the result is that we didn't get anywhere until christianity raised its ugly head

are you playing with a full deck? highly unlikely given this and other recent posts. christianity didn't come into being until Cghrist and His ressurrection. even the Bible recognizes that other civilizations had their religions in ancient times.

i have been hoping that someone would come in with something really insightful which not only stirs the pot but brings things together in a manner that we can get a grip on this topic.