The Exodus Decoded

[Guest]

Oh yeah!

I have not mentioned the name for the fear it would summon him.

Though it might be "interesting" to see his interaction with this archaeologist. Sort of like confronting a Flat-Earther with one who maintains "The World is Hollow and We Live on the Inside."

Pour the drinks . . . sit back . . . watch . . . bet on the winner.

--J.D.

P.S. Not that I would do that. While initially "amusing" it just "shits up" a forum with reams of crapolla.

[marduk]

Graham Hancock makes everyone sensitive

thats just because he talks crap

[Guest]

anyways amdist the crap that is off topic here, here is what humphreys has to say about the pharaoh of the exodus. taken from 'The Miracles of the Exodus' pgs. 257-8

" So did pharaoh die? The book of exodus describes at length the drowning of the egyptian army, devoting as many as 30 verses to this (ex. 14:23-15:21) However, nowhere is it stated that pharaoh himself was drowned...Surely, if pharaoh himself had died, the writer could not have resisted mentioning it here, ...

Of course, if pharaoh had drowned in the red sea, this would be a useful clue to help find out who the pharaoh of the exodus was and hence to date the exodus. As i have argued earlier, i think the most probable pharaoh at the time of the exodus was the great ramses II...

So long as this pharaoh ruled egypt, i believe the israelites were safe from the egyptians. And indeed history records this to be the case. there is no record in the Bible or anywhere else of the egyptians attacking the israelites after the failed attack at the red sea until ramesses II's son, merenptah, attacked the israelites in canaan in about 1210 b.c."


where this falls short is that the possibility that the pharaoh did die at the red sea and his son was so devastated that he left israel alone and cautioned his son todo the same and so on.

it also leaves open the door that ramses II was the son who assumed the throne when his father died chasing the israelites

[Guest]

As i have argued earlier, i think the most probable pharaoh at the time of the exodus was the great ramses II...

Save that the evidence you have refused to read demonstrates that is wrong.

Where is this sunken Egyptian army? Where, for that matter, is the "sea of reeds/destruction?"

Do you also believe El is a greater god than YHWH? For one cannot ignore a passage which shows YHWH as subordinate to El. Deuteronomy 32:8-9 describes how when El Elyon--"El the Most High," parceled out the nations between his sons, YHWH received Israel as his portion. Do notice that "Israel" is an El theophoric and not a YHWH theophoric such as "Netanyahu." Later scribes tried to change this meaning. Day, Smith, and Schmidt note the textual evidence establishes the preferred reading of "sons of God"--more properly "gods": bene elohim rather than the Massoretic text's "sons of Israel"--bene yisra' el. Curiously, Friedman tries to preserve the now discredited reading. Thus:

When El the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
When he separated humanity,
He fixed the boundaries of the peoples
According to the number of sons of gods.
For YHWH's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

As, Schmidt notes:

The relevant Septuagint and Qumran readings of Deut 32:8-9 describe how the Most High or the Canaanite high god, El . . . had allotted to each of the nations one of the members of his pantheon or "sons of El" (la ynb). . . . Deut 32:9 also reveals that YHWH was once viewed as an independent, but subordinate, deity to El and was assigned by El to Jacob/Israel. In other words, the tradition suggests that YHWH was once viewed as a deity possessing equal or lower rank and power to that of the astral gods.

Did YHWH create the divine pantheon, or, particularly El to whom he was subordinate? No biblical, or extra-biblical, source supports such a belief. An sherd found in excavations of the Jewish Quarter dated in the 7th century BCE demonstrates the importance of an El deity in Jerusalem: l qn 'rs "El, creator of the earth," (Keel).

So whom should we worship?

What about "Mrs. YHWH?"

Edelman notes:

During the period when Judah existed as a state, from ca. 960-586 BCE, it seems to have had a national pantheon headed by the divine couple, Yahweh and Asherah. As the title Yahweh Sebaot would suggest, Yahweh was king of a whole heavenly host that included lesser deities who did his bidding, having various degrees of autonomy depending upon their status within the larger hierarchy (Edelman).

Excavations of a caravanserai at Kuntillet ‘Ajrud dated to the first half of the eighth century, revealed paintings and inscriptions on two large storage jars or pithoi (Keel). Controversy persists on whether or not the depictions represent YHWH and the goddess Asherah (Keel, Laughlin, Schmidt), however the inscription reads: “lyhwh smron wl’srth,” translated: “To Yahweh of Samaria and His a/Asherah,” (Laughlin). Laughlin notes that while debate continues as to whether or not the inscription intends a cultic symbol, “asherah,” or a consort goddess akin to the Canaanite Asherah, consort of the god and probable equivalent to YHWH, Baal (Cross), “. . . these inscriptions and other material remains . . . all point to the fact that in popular religion, at least, many Israelites associated Yahweh with a female consort,” (Laughlin).

So, should we set up our poles . . . heh . . . heh . . . "poles" [Get on with it!--Ed.] for Asherah? Far be it we should ignore her, she might tell her husband and we all know what he did to the SomethingOrOtherAKites even if actual evidence indicates otherwise.

And indeed history records this to be the case.

It records quite the opposite, which you would know, if you bothered to read the history.

--J.D.

References:

Cross FM. Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1973.

Day J. Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan. London: Sheffield Academic Press, 2002.

Edelman DV. “Introduction,” The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Edelman DV, ed. Grand Rapids: Wm B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1995.

Friedman RE. Who Wrote the Bible?. 2nd Ed. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1997.

Friedman RE. The Bible with Sources Revealed. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 2003.

Keel O, Uehlinger C. Gods, Goddesses and Images of God in Ancient Israel. Thomas H. Trapp trans. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1998.

Laughlin JCH. Archaeology and the Bible. London: Routledge, 2000.

Schmidt BB. "The Aniconic Tradition," The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Edelman DV, ed. Grand Rapids: Wm B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1995.

Smith MS. The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel, 2nd Ed. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2002.

[Minimalist]

where this falls short is that the possibility that the pharaoh did die at the red sea and his son was so devastated that he left israel alone and cautioned his son todo the same and so on.

Among other places where it falls short is that it does not provide enough time for poor old non-existent Solomon to build his non-existent temple in non-existent Jerusalem 480 years after the non-existent exodus (1 Kings 6).

Even if the Exodus had happened in 1250 BC, subtracting 480 years would push the temple construction to 770 BC and that's just too late, isn't it?

You see, arch, the bible has the same problem as bad politicians. They tell so many lies that they can't keep them straight.

[Guest]

why attack the Bible? that is humphreys' theory.

[Minimalist]

Bullshit needs to be attacked.

Humphreys is just the messenger. It is the message that is false.

[Guest]

Criticism is not attack.

--J.D.

[Guest]

Where is this sunken Egyptian army? Where, for that matter, is the "sea of reeds/destruction?"

i wouldn't know. ask ron wyatt, he claimed to have found the remains before he died. well he and a partner, whose name escapes me.

since they were uried under water, it stands to reason that the bodies and the chariots would have/could have been moved by water action thus rendering a possibility of a false conclusion if ever found.

[marduk]

ah yes the very same Ron Wyatt who claimed a standard geological formation on Mt Ararat was Noahs ark
how very credible he was
at least he was qualifed
he was a certified registered nurse anesthetist
even your favourite website exposed Ron Wyatt as a fraud
The Main Claims at a Glance
True/False?
Radar shows man-made (boat) structure..........FALSE
There is a regular metallic pattern............FALSE
Lab tests show petrified laminated wood........FALSE
Turkish scientists found metal rods............FALSE
Metal artefacts have been proved by lab........FALSE
There are ‘ship’s ribs’ showing................FALSE
There is lots of petrified wood................FALSE
Turkish Commission says ‘it’s a boat...........FALSE
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... report.asp

[Guest]

Where is this sunken Egyptian army? Where, for that matter, is the "sea of reeds/destruction?"

i wouldn't know.

Your ignorance is clear, lad.

ask ron wyatt, he claimed to have found the remains before he died.

I claim to be molesting Nicole Kidman.

since they were uried under water, it stands to reason that the bodies and the chariots would have/could have been moved by water action thus rendering a possibility of a false conclusion if ever found.

No, it does not.

You then fail to provide documentary evidence for this.

You then fail to address the negative evidence given to you.

You basically fail.

What? Again Nicole?! Well . . . if you insist. . . .

--J.D.

[Guest]

doctor x, i fear you are just another marduk thus i do not take yours, his or john's posts seriously or acknowledge them for discussion.

as for the ron wyatt appearance in my post, has anyone heard of sarcasm. i already know what he was and i certainlky do not need the obvious posted and then accused of supporting or believing the man.

the man is dead, let him and his 'discoveries' rest in peace.

the current topic is The Exodus Decoded if you have anything constructive to post about that topic or The Exodus itself, pease do so, if not, please refrain from mucking up the works and hindering real discussion.

[marduk]

doctor x, i fear you are just another marduk thus i do not take yours, his or john's posts seriously or acknowledge them for discussion.

hey Doctor
join the club of posters at this forum who have asked Arch a question that he is incapable of answering without admitting that his religion is a big fraud

thats why hes now going to ignore you
just in case you ask another

like i'm still waiting for an answer for this one

so you agree that the israelites built heliopolis then

as it says in Exodus 1:11

as i'm also still waiting for the links that Arch said he would post proving that the story of Noah is older than the epic of Gilgamesh

[ed]

doctor x, i fear you are just another marduk thus i do not take yours, his or john's posts seriously or acknowledge them for discussion.

as for the ron wyatt appearance in my post, has anyone heard of sarcasm. i already know what he was and i certainlky do not need the obvious posted and then accused of supporting or believing the man.

the man is dead, let him and his 'discoveries' rest in peace.

the current topic is The Exodus Decoded if you have anything constructive to post about that topic or The Exodus itself, pease do so, if not, please refrain from mucking up the works and hindering real discussion.

It seems that Doc ex has undercut the inerrency of the bible.

[Minimalist]

I'm not so sure that Jocobovici has anything to do with the bible but if there is another aspect you want to discuss, please say which it is.