Noah's Flood...

[Guest]

yes. since you are not satisfied with the evidence i do bring,

You have not brought any evidence.

Try again.

--J.D.

[john]

yes. since you are not satisfied with the evidence i do bring, it would help to know what everyone expects and wants (serious answers only).

thenit would help to know how far down to dig, so the proper level is reached to verify that the evidence is from the right time period and that credibility can be established.

if you don't accept what i bring, then you have to give some idea of what to look for. so i look forward to some serious, honest, in a nutshell answers which can shed light on this problem of lack of evidence you all claim to exist.

arch -

"to live outside the law, you must be honest."

- r. zimmerman

urschleim has already been done.

viz. Oken (1779-1851)


john

[Guest]

o-2 still the usual crap.. why don't you all grow a brain and simply answer the questions honestly.

[Guest]

Where did I put that new Irony Meter?

--J.D.

[DougWeller]

I see pole-shift has been brought out again. I wish people would realise that the fact that they are writing about it shows it didn't happen!

It is impossible to argue with Creationists on the flood, however, because they make up their own science as they go along, and where that fails, they bring in magic -- the ultimate answer, it as a Miracle.

For those interested in science, I offer once again Mark Isaak's article.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noa ... ationist. http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/bert ... ke.htm[url]

And see also [/url]http://benambra.org/benambra/?q=comment/reply/671[url]

Be afraid, be very afraid, Berthaut seems to have a lot of influence with the present Pope.

Doug[/url]

[Minimalist]

o-2 still the usual crap.. why don't you all grow a brain and simply answer the questions honestly.

I'll get to it. I want to check the bible myth to see exactly which outrageous claims need to be satisfied in order to answer your questions.

I always have to steel myself before wading through that stuff, though.


Later.

[Leona Conner]

Yeh, no Cliff Notes.

[Guest]

I'll get to it.

it isn't just you...i ask for simple. straight-forward answersand all i get is tap dancing around the issue.

It is impossible to argue with Creationists on the flood, however, because they make up their own science as they go along,

why can't you simply answer the questions with an opinion? why go attacking when all you need to do is express what you want to see? i am not even talking about science, just the type of evidence you want to see and how deep i need to dig.

but your response is typical of an evolutionist and your credibility is shot now especially since i have been told mine is when i don't answer questions.

[DougWeller]

I'll get to it.

it isn't just you...i ask for simple. straight-forward answersand all i get is tap dancing around the issue.

It is impossible to argue with Creationists on the flood, however, because they make up their own science as they go along,

why can't you simply answer the questions with an opinion? why go attacking when all you need to do is express what you want to see? i am not even talking about science, just the type of evidence you want to see and how deep i need to dig.

but your response is typical of an evolutionist and your credibility is shot now especially since i have been told mine is when i don't answer questions.

What is all this about? I don't recall you asking me any questions. So I haven't answered the questions I haven't seen, how does that affect my credibility?

Doug

[Guest]

they were accessible if you hit the reply button and reviewed the posts, they were posted twice. but here they are again:

again let me ask the question: What evidence are you looking for? If it is produced would you accept it as such?

Quote:
where do you expect to find the proof you seek? at what depth do you think you should stop digging?

too bad you didn't get the links to work but creationists do not make up science as they go along (at least the credible ones) we just look at all the possibilities which most evolutionists dismiss for whatever reason. also we know what God can do, so the word 'impossible' is not in the vocabulary.

any time you omit God, you come from a human understanding and perspective and that will lead you astray, even scientists.

Be afraid, be very afraid, Berthaut seems to have a lot of influence with the present Pope

well the pope only has influence over those who listen to him and lately he is trying to exercise his influence over politicians similar to what took place during the dark and middle ages.

the pope seems to think he gets to dictate to secular powers what a country should or should not do.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060908/wl_ ... gays_col_1

[Guest]

Noblesse oblige. . . .

Using Friedman with corrections as appropriate:

• J: Gen 7:1-5, 7, 16b-20, 22-23
  P: Gen 6:9b-22; 7:8-16a, 21, 24; 8:1-2a; 3b-5

And YHWH said to Noah, "Come, you and all your household, into an ark, for I've seen you as virtuous in front of me in this generation. Of all the pure animals, take seven pairs, man and his woman; and of the animals that are not pure, two, man and his woman. Also of the birds of the skies seven pairs, male and female, to keep alive on the face of the Earth. Because in seven more days I'll rain on the Earth, forty days and forty nights, and I'll wipe out all the substance that I've made from on the face of the Earth." And Noah did according to all that YHWH had commanded him.

And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives with him came to the ark from before the waters of the flood. And YHWH closed it for him. And the flood was on the Earth for forty days, and the waters multiplied and raised the ark, and it was lifted from the Earth. And the waters grew strong and multiplied very much on the Earth, and the ark went on the face of the waters. And the waters had grown very, very strong on the earth, so they covered all the high mountains that are under all the skies. Fifteen cubits above, the waters grew stronger, and they covered the mountains. Everything that had the breathing spirit of life in its nostrils, everything that was on the ground, died. And he wiped out all the substance that was on the face of the Earth, from human to animal to creeping thing and to bird of the skies, and they were wiped out from the Earth, and just Noah and those who were with him in the ark were left.

Noah was a virtuous man. He was unblemished in his generations. Noah walked with Elohim. And Noah fathered three sons: Shem, Ham, and Yaphet. And the Earth was corrupted before Elohim, and the Earth was filled with violence. And Elohim saw the Earth; and, here, it was corrupted, because all flesh had corrupted its way on the Earth. And Elohim said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before me, because the Earth is filled with violence because of them. And here: I'm destroying them with the Earth. Make yourself an ark of gopher wood, make rooms with the ark, and pitch it outside and inside with pitch. And this is how you shall make it: three hundred cubits the length of the ark, fifty cubits its width, and thirty cubits its height. You shall make a window for the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from the top, and you shall make the ark's entrance in its side. You shall make lower, second, and third stories for it. And I, here: I'm bringing the flood, water on the Earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under the skies. Everything that is in the Earth will expire. And I shall establish my covenant with you. And you'll come to the ark, you and your sons you’re your wife and your sons' wives with you. And of all the living, of all flesh, you shall bring two of each to the ark to keep alive with you. They shall be male and female. Of the birds by their kind and of the domestic animals by their kind, of all the creeping things of the ground by their kind, two of each will come to you to keep alive. And you, take some of every food that will be eaten and gather it to you, and it will be for you and for them food." And Noah did it. According to everything that Elohim commanded him, he did so. Of the animals that were pure and of the animals that were not pure, and of the birds and everyone that creeps on the ground, they came by twos to Noah, to the ark, male and female, as Elohim had commanded Noah. And seven days later the waters of the flood were on the Earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, on this day all the fountains of the great deep were split open, and the apertures of the skies were opened. And there was rain on the Earth, forty days and forty nights. In this very day Noah came, and Shem and Ham and Yaphet, Noah's sons, and Noah's wife and his sons' three wives with them to the ark,they and all the wild animals by their kind and all the domestic animals by their kind and all the creping animals that creep on the Earth by their kind and all the birds by their kind, all fowl, all winged things. And they came to Noah, to the ark by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life, and those that came were male and female; some from all flesh came, as Elohim had commanded him. And all flesh that creep on the Earth--of the birds and of the domestic animals and of the wild animals and of all the swarming creatures that swarm on the Earth, and all the humans--expired. And the water grew strong on the Earth a hundred fifty days.

And Elohim remembered Noah and all the wild animals and all the domestic animals that were with him in the ark, and Elohim passed a wind over the earth, and the water decreased. And the fountains of the deep and the apertures of the skies were shut, and the water receded at the end of a hundred fifty days. And the ark rested in the seventh month, in the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat. And the water went on receding until the tenth month. In the tenth month, in the first of the month, the tops of the mountains appeared.

Notice that in the J Flood Myth, Noah has all of seven days to catch those birds! He also has to obtain seven of the clean animals--to allow for sacrifices. How could he do this? No details are given. This is also a global flood.

In P, since sacrifice is only allowed after the establishment of the Tabernacle in Exodus 40, he only needs two. Which is correct? Along with using different names for a deity--YHWH versus Elohim--J uses "died" while P only uses "expired," which never occurs in J, E, or D (Friedman).

So where are these "fountains of the deep" and "apertures of the skies?" described in the P story? As Friedman notes, in theP P Creation Myth a firmament separates waters above and below it. "The universe in that story is thus a habitable bubble surrounded by water. This same conception is assumed in the P flood story, in which the 'apertures of the skies' and the 'fountains of the great deep' are broken up so that the waters flow in."

--J.D.

Reference:

Friedman RE. The Bible with Sources Revealed. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 2003.

[Minimalist]

Okay...to review:

Flood Myth Variation #1

So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
13 And God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14 Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch.
15 And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.
16 You shall make a window for the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from above; and set the door of the ark in its side. You shall make it with lower, second, and third decks.
17 And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.
18 But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark—you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you.
19 And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female.
20 Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.
21 And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather it to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them.”
22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God commanded him, so he did.

Flood Myth Variation #2

Genesis Chapter 7
1 Then the LORD said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.
2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;
3 also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth.
4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.”
5 And Noah did according to all that the LORD commanded him.
6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth.
7 So Noah, with his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives, went into the ark because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean animals, of animals that are unclean, of birds, and of everything that creeps on the earth,
9 two by two they went into the ark to Noah, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 On the very same day Noah and Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark—
14 they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.
16 So those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the LORD shut him in.
17 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.
18 The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.
20 The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

Part III - God comes to his senses.

Genesis Chapter 8
1 Then God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the animals that were with him in the ark. And God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters subsided.
2 The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained.
3 And the waters receded continually from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters decreased.
4 Then the ark rested in the seventh month, the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat.
5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month. In the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains were seen.
6 So it came to pass, at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made.
7 Then he sent out a raven, which kept going to and fro until the waters had dried up from the earth.
8 He also sent out from himself a dove, to see if the waters had receded from the face of the ground.
9 But the dove found no resting place for the sole of her foot, and she returned into the ark to him, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth. So he put out his hand and took her, and drew her into the ark to himself.
10 And he waited yet another seven days, and again he sent the dove out from the ark.
11 Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth.
12 So he waited yet another seven days and sent out the dove, which did not return again to him anymore.
13 And it came to pass in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, that the waters were dried up from the earth; and Noah removed the covering of the ark and looked, and indeed the surface of the ground was dry.
14 And in the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dried.
15 Then God spoke to Noah, saying,
16 “Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons’ wives with you.
17 Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you: birds and cattle and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth.”
18 So Noah went out, and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him.
19 Every animal, every creeping thing, every bird, and whatever creeps on the earth, according to their families, went out of the ark.
20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

So that is the story(ies) with the variations in the number of animals.

It seems that there are several claims.

1- Water rose above the mountain tops thereby covering the whole earth.
2- Everybody except Noah's little party, which he had painstakingly gathered while building the ark with the two or seven animals (depending on which version you like) were wiped out.
3- The flood waters remained for the better part of a year.
4- Psychotic bastard that god was, after having done all that killing he still wanted more "sacrifices."

Thus, you would have to produce scientific evidence that:

A- There is a sufficient amount of water available to be able to cover the mountain tops.
B- That such an amount of water could be delivered via rainstorm within the prescribed 40 days and 40 nights.
C- That in that time, Noah was able to visit Australia, Africa, North and South America, and Europe, to gather the required types of animals....while still building the so-called ark.
D- You would need DNA evidence which shows that every living creature can be traced back to the flood survivors and that such DNA was approximately 4,600 years old.
E- You would need evidence from a global flood layer (which should be thick enough so that it was obvious to any researcher) which could be carbon dated to that same 4,600 year old time period.
F- You would need to show how the animals removed from the aforementioned continents made their way back once Noah had finished saving them and sacrificing them. Again, examples of Kangaroo skeletons in Southeast Asia heading back to Australia would be sufficient, subject to the same need for carbon testing to make sure the dates are consistent.

So, the second question would be answered "Yes" that would be sufficient provided all such evidence were subjected to genuine peer review and not merely the wet dream of some creationist moron. (There's a lot of that out there!)

Third question....Hmmm, well, if I were you I would look for the evidence not at the bottom of mine shafts but on the top of the world's highest mountains. Since you claim the story is factual it would seem that the most likely place to find evidence of a unique event would be in the most unique place fathomable. Thus, were you to recover datable flood debris from the tops of Mount Everest or Mount McKinley or the highest peaks on all of the other continents, I would say you were well on your way to proving that all of those peaks were submerged at the same time...again, provided the dates fall within the historical time period. Let's not have any of this pre-Cambrian nonsense from before the mountain ranges rose, okay.

Fourth? Dig till you heart's content....but start on top of the mountains where you won't be running the risk of uncovering run-of-the-mill floods like the one that fooled Wooley. You are looking for THE Big One...and it shouldn't be that hard to find if it happened.

[stan]

arch wrote:

also we know what God can do, so the word 'impossible' is not in the vocabulary.

THe whole problem in a nutshell.

[Guest]

Okay...to review:

well at least you made the attempt. 1-4 now? or is it 1-6? lost count. a couple comments:

1.There is a sufficient amount of water available to be able to cover the mountain tops.

well given modern standards, modern influences like nuclear fallout, volcanoes, and smoke stacks, it is a pretty safe bet that that calculation would at best be only a guesstimate. also we must consider how much water is under the crust, last word i heard, no one knew how much water was down there and this is a popular argument in your neck of the woods because of the CAP controversy.

2. That such an amount of water could be delivered via rainstorm within the prescribed 40 days and 40 nights

given the amount of rainfall that takes place during a monsoon storm, even for a short time, that is a possibility.

3. That in that time, Noah was able to visit Australia, Africa, North and South America, and Europe, to gather the required types of animals....while still building the so-called ark.

this is assuming that the pre-flood geography was the same as the post-flood result. no one knows.

4. You would need DNA evidence which shows that every living creature can be traced back to the flood survivors and that such DNA was approximately 4,600 years old

i believe scientists have traced the dog species back far enough to concude that is true. i will have to search for the article.

5. You would need evidence from a global flood layer (which should be thick enough so that it was obvious to any researcher) which could be carbon dated to that same 4,600 year old time period

i doubt we could get a consistant read on the global flood layer, due to construction, earthquakes, volcanoes and other sources that alter the ground we walk. natural disasters must be taken into account along with man made fiascos, like new york city. plus who is going to allow their natural beauty to be dug up so we can confirm the find?

6. You would need to show how the animals removed from the aforementioned continents made their way back once Noah had finished saving them and sacrificing them. Again, examples of Kangaroo skeletons in Southeast Asia heading back to Australia would be sufficient, subject to the same need for carbon testing to make sure the dates are consistent.

so you are saying that the bones discussed by both Hapgood and Rehwenkel womn't suffice? besides even if we found them, it could be argues that those animals were brought to a zoo or imported for some reason. thus you cold dismiss that evidence on the merest of technicalities.

as unrealistic as you are at least you gave it a shot. i highly doubt that even if we did meet these requirements,that you would believe it but instead still find some minute point in which to excuse your inability to follow through on your word.

[Minimalist]

Hapgood and Rehwinkle would not survive the peer review process, either.

Have fun gathering the evidence.