Noah's Flood...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:00 pm

Do you, archae, think that the Bible describes Noah's Flood as having covered the entire earth?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:12 pm

Uh, archae, that's a yes or a no question, you can handle it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:14 pm

Do you, archae, think that the Bible describes Noah's Flood as having covered the entire earth

Uh, archae, that's a yes or a no question, you can handle it.

read it for yourself and see. i am not a library.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:22 pm

You're so squirmy in your posts which I read that I can't really tell what you think about the nature of Noah's Flood, but let me take a stab at it.

You think Noah's Flood, which covered the entire earth, occurred within the last 12000 years or so, now, begin clarifying this at your own intellectual peril.

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:57 pm

last time he got asked something similar Jim he started acting like a baby and refusing to posts links that he claimed proved his position
we're still all waiting for the links

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:04 pm

Archae, back on 2/16/06, you said to someone that Noah's Flood was a globe-covering event, just like the Bible says, but then you say there's no apparent evidence of it, because scientists may "have not dug down deep enough, nor in the right places," so what's up with that?

I can cite evidence for the Global Flood Model (Noah's Flood), but you can cite no evidence, and you also offered that if non-religious scientists found evidence of the Global Flood, then they wouldn't tell us about it 'cause that would confirm Genesis.

And yet now, you are blowing hot air at strong evidences which confirm that which you ostensibly believe, very strange, seemingly irrational.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:31 pm

The exposure of a Double Liar is always constructive. There are plenty of "coffee klatch" boards where everyone swallows everyone else's "self-actualized positiveness" in one collosal circle jerk.

--J.D.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:37 pm

but you can cite no evidence,

read the other 70 pages of this debate that i have been involved with. sorry been there, done that. you are making your statements, back them up with credible links, sources and references.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:50 pm

Your statement which I noted says it all, "it did happen, but there is no evidence that it ever did," very impressive.
I can hear you telling people as you attempt to defend the faith, "yes, Noah's Flood covered the earth, just like Genesis says, but there is no evidence of that global-encompassing flood." And then the people you're talking to look at you as if you have four arms, shrug their shoulders, and walk away, very impressed.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:57 pm

read the pages and comprehend for yourself. i am not your personal researcher.

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:09 pm

Actually....GV has distilled your position very well, Arch.

(Of course, he is even nuttier than you are.)

I don't get this. You two should be natural allies.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:12 pm

I'm not sure of any YEC explanation for this and the dozens of other major impact craters? be interesting to know if there is one?

really,

really,

huge

raindrops.

john

john · Post by **john** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:04 pm

Doctor X wrote:
Genesis Veracity wrote:"In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth."
WRONG!

Why is it that "literalists" never seem to actually read their texts?

Nevertheless . . . noblesse oblige . . .

Since the individual quotes the P Creation Myth--based on, of all things, an Eygptian prayer via a Psalm--I gather he assumes that is the Creation Myth to believe. The other authors might just disagree on that point.

At the time when Elohim created/separated the skies and the earth when the earth had been shapeless and formless, and darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the spirit of Elohim was hovering on the face of the water. . . .

Gen 1:1-2
"Creation myth" is a bit of a misnomer. Gods do not so much create as reorder to their devices. Hence the pre-existing "waters of the deep." Where was Elohim hanging about prior to his work?! The primary action in earlier creation myths is the physical separation of earth from the skies. After reviewing these, Westermann notes:

This background makes it worthwhile considering the thesis that the Hebrew word for creation by God [Cannot render Hebrew Font: Aleph-Resh-Bet--Ed.], has the original basic meaning of "divide" or "separate," E. Dantinne, "Creation et Séparation," Le Muséon, 74 (1961). He begins with the passages Josh 17:15, 18; Ezek 23:47 . . . where the verb means "cut off" or "cut in pieces."
On earlier sources and this "deep," Day notes that:

. . . the Priestly creation account in Genesis 1, where it has often been thought that tehom 'deep' in Gen. 1.2 is a reminiscence of the name of Tiamat. . . . However, in general, since the discovery of the Ugaritic [Canaanite texts from Ugarit.--Ed.] texts from 1929 onwards, it has become generally accepted that the Old Testament's references to a divine conflict with a dragon and the sea are an echo of Canaanite rather than Babylonian mythology.
Thus, there was already a "universe" as in tehom that the Earth rested on when Elohim separated the sky from it. As Friedman notes, in theP Creation Myth a firmament separates waters above and below it. "The universe in that story is thus a habitable bubble surrounded by water. This same conception is assumed in the P flood story, in which the 'apertures of the skies' and the 'fountains of the great deep' are broken up so that the waters flow in" (Friedman, TBwSR).

It has become accepted that this P Creation Myth is dependent on Psalm 104 (Day), which is in turn based on the 14th century BCE Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten's Hymn to the Sun (Day). Day notes the form of the word for "beasts" in Gen 1:24--hayeto--occurs elsewhere only in poetry, including Ps 104:11;20. Tehom also appears in Ps 104:6 to denote the primaeval waters (Day). The order of creation in Ps 104 is the same as in the P Creation Myth (Day). Interestingly, Jeremiah--which repudiates much of P--reverses the P Creation Myth in Jer 4:23 (Friedman, TBwSR).

Perhaps, the individual would like to prefer the other main creation myth, that of J. Let us examine this:

In the day that YHWH made the earth and skies--when all produce of the field had not yet been in the earth, and all vegetation of the field had not yet grown. . . .

Gen 2:4b-5a
I remove the Redactor additions of "Elohim"--translated as "god"--to YHWH.

Here you have the locative view of religion--ground HERE, sky ABOVE. No mention of anything beyond that. Certainly no mention of YHWH creating the universe which will include where he exists. Interestingly, the time of this is not so much the "creation" of the Earth but the before "all the vegetation of the field." As with the P myth, J's is not so much creation as in reorganization or even expansion.

I now bring to attention the "Song of the Sea," possibly the oldest composition in the Hebrew Bible (Cross; Friedman, 2003). Preserved in Exod 15:2-18 asks in verse 11, "Who among the gods is like you, YHWH?" This verse assumes the existence of other gods and considers YHWH greater than them. It is preserved in the J text. So, did YHWH create the land of the gods?

One cannot ignore a passage which shows YHWH as subordinate to El. Deuteronomy 32:8-9 describes how when El Elyon--"El the Most High," parceled out the nations between his sons, YHWH received Israel as his portion. Later scribes tried to change this meaning. Day, Smith, and Schmidt note the textual evidence establishes the preferred reading of "sons of God"--more properly "gods": bene elohim rather than the Massoretic text's "sons of Israel"--bene yisra' el. Curiously, Friedman tries to preserve the now discredited reading. Thus:

When El the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
When he separated humanity,
He fixed the boundaries of the peoples
According to the number of sons of gods.
For YHWH's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.
As, Schmidt notes:

The relevant Septuagint and Qumran readings of Deut 32:8-9 describe how the Most High or the Canaanite high god, El . . . had allotted to each of the nations one of the members of his pantheon or "sons of El" (la ynb). . . . Deut 32:9 also reveals that YHWH was once viewed as an independent, but subordinate, deity to El and was assigned by El to Jacob/Israel. In other words, the tradition suggests that YHWH was once viewed as a deity possessing equal or lower rank and power to that of the astral gods.
Did YHWH create the divine pantheon, or, particularly El to whom he was subordinate? No biblical, or extra-biblical, source supports such a belief. An sherd found in excavations of the Jewish Quarter dated in the 7th century BCE demonstrates the importance of an El deity in Jerusalem: l qn 'rs "El, creator of the earth," (Keel).

I have not even mentioned the other Creation Myths of the Hebrew Bible.

--J.D.

References:

Cross FM. Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1973.

Day J. Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan. London: Sheffield Academic Press, 2002.

Friedman RE. Who Wrote the Bible?. 2nd Ed. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1997.

Friedman RE. The Bible with Sources Revealed. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 2003.

Keel O, Uehlinger C. Gods, Goddesses and Images of God in Ancient Israel. Thomas H. Trapp trans. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1998.

Schmidt BB. "The Aniconic Tradition," The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Edelman DV, ed. Grand Rapids: Wm B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1995.

Smith MS. The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel, 2nd Ed. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2002.

Westermann C. Genesis: An Introduction. Scullion JJ, trans. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1992.

since this seems to be the last coherent post - at least in my view of the presentation of evidence - then i'll begin again at this point.

veracity - a point by point refutation of this evidence, with references, would be greatly appreciated. this to establish the evidentiary "order of battle" for the continuation of this thread.

for my part, it seems axiomatic to me that if one posits a "no-thing" (the absolute absence of matter and time), then the existence of a "god" is contradicted. i would be interested in your (bibilical) evidence for god's existence previous to his theoretical creation of the universe. also, assuming his dominion over the no-thing prior to his six day effort, why did the (nonexistence) of the no-thing demand that he be of the male sex (sexual differentiation being entirely connected to a universe defined by matter and time).

john

john

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:48 pm

John, I'm reading the Genesis 1:1 which has been transcribed by the Jews for thousands of years, you seem to have an agenda not based on history, but if you must delude yourself.....

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:20 pm

Minimalist, by the way, thank you for your endorsement of my analysis of archae's position concerning the Biblical Noah's Flood, now we can move on.