Some Non-Biblical, Non-Flood, Archaeology....

[Guest]

Hey archae, just put a little s at the end of your serious posts, and a little k after your "just kidding" posts, that way, we'll know that all of your posts are not "just kidding," as such a distinction is needed for two reasons:

1) Many of your posts are so silly, one thinks you must be kidding.

2) When you tell someone to go back and read what you said, they'll know to skip over the posts which have a little k at the end of them.

This would help us try to make sense of the stuff you write.

[Essan]

I suspect every post sine the first one coudl be delted now that Doctor X has removed all his comments .....

Anyway, reverting to the original subject of this thread: it's interetsing to note the the Neanderthals occupying this cave were doing so exactly at the height of the last Glacial Maximum.

Having survived previous Glacial Maximums, they sucumbed to the last one. Where the one difference was the presence, in the same habitat, of modern humans as well. Not saying we killed them, but we may have out competed them for food or shelter - just sufficent to push their numbers (which were probably in decline for climatic reasons anyway) to the brink. When the LGM passed and the climate recovered, if there were any Neandertalss left (and we never say for sure) they weren't in sufficent numbers to allow for a recovery.

May be then that we did to the neanderthals the same as we did to many other species around the same time: we didn't make them extinct, but we provided the straw for the camel's back.

[Minimalist]

It's a fascinating theory, Andy, and I'd love to know the answer but if Out of Africa is true and they came via the Levant starting around 40k BP it just seems as if that's a long way for humans to go in sufficient numbers to displace existing populations in 16,000 years.

HSS was not organized like an invading army conducting a blitzkrieg. I still like the disease model.

[Starflower]

A more detailed article in the news today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story ... rss&feed=1

I hope they do find more evidence in their underwater archaeology dig or scoop or whatever you call it. It sounds like they didn't have a chance at survival if there really were only 15 of them left. I would be interested in hearing if they find anything more in the next cave they think is there.

[Minimalist]

The sea level was around 100m lower in neanderthal times as vast quantities of water were locked up in glaciers that encroached from the poles and smothered Scotland in sheets of ice two miles thick.

Raises the intriguing possibility that even later Neanderthal remains were obliterated when the water rose. After all, if they were 'retreating' to this spot, in pre-meltdown times they could have retreated a lot further.

[Guest]

Hey min, when do you think the water rose?

[stan]

Exploration of the region has moved into the sea beneath the cave, to examine the now submerged land that once stretched out in front of the cave. Divers working with the team have recently identified nine further caves 20m beneath the sea surface. "We are going to attempt underwater excavations. We will go into it knowing the chances of finding anything are slim, but what if we were to find tools? That would be amazing," said Prof Finlayson.

Archaeology! Whoopee. More excitement! This beats all the pseudointellectualism on other doomed threads.

[Barracuda]

Of course, they are arguing dating already!

But the idea that this was a last stronghold makes geographic sense.

The more I think about it, the more I strongly agree with Min that it was disease that wiped out the last of the Neanderthals. Just like what happened when native peoples in the Americas and Polynesia were first exposed to Europeans. Disease can spread much faster than any physical domination.

I also think that when/if the last of the Neanderthals are found, it will be in 30-40 feet of seawater. It only makes sense that primative people would live by the sea, and all of the acient coastline is now underwater.

[Beagle]

The sea level was around 100m lower in neanderthal times as vast quantities of water were locked up in glaciers that encroached from the poles and smothered Scotland in sheets of ice two miles thick.

Raises the intriguing possibility that even later Neanderthal remains were obliterated when the water rose. After all, if they were 'retreating' to this spot, in pre-meltdown times they could have retreated a lot further.

Pardon the intrusion, but for metrically challenged people like myself, 100 meters will translate to about 400 ft.

Depending on local geography, the sea could be 3-20 miles away from the current shoreline.


*Stan - I agree.

[Guest]

There are submeged megalithic ruins off the southern coast of Spain near Gibraltar at Tarifa, Chipiona, Rota, and Huelva, so if Neanderthal villages were submerged when the Ice Age ended, then those megalithic ruins went under at the same time, and what date do you ascribe to this?

[Essan]

The submerging of any possible Neanderthal coastal settlements would have occurred steadily over the past 15,000 or so years. In some locations tectonic movements may have caused faster sinking of the land or even, theoretically, rising of it - potentially some ice age coasts could still be above sea level in the Med area. Though I say theoretically because I'm not aware of any specific examples.

Measuring sea levls changes is a complex process simply because of both isostatic (land) movement and eustatic (sea) movement and this can vary tremendously from place to place.

I do know, for example, that there is a Roman site in Italy, currently well above sea level, which was nevertheless below sea level within historical times (as shown by the presence of barnacles on some of the ruins) - so the Romans built by the sea. The land fell and the building was submerged. Then the land rose again and it's now even higher above the sea than it was originally.

The Med is a very active tectonic zone. The Gibraltar region is on the edge of this zone, but still affected by the movements of the African and European plates as the one pushed obliquely into the other.

[Guest]

So, Essan, according to you, the megalithic structures submerged off southern Spain at Tarifa, Chipiona, Rota, and Huelva, must have been built "15,000 years or so" ago? If so, then you are saying that the experts are off by about 10,000 in their idea that megalithic building of cities began circa 3000 B.C. How do you explain this huge gap?

[Essan]

So, Essan, according to you, the megalithic structures submerged off southern Spain at Tarifa, Chipiona, Rota, and Huelva, must have been built "15,000 years or so" ago?

No, all I said is that sea levels have steadily risen for the past 15,000 or so years

However, generally speaking sea level rises peaked around 5,000 years ago. Though obvioulsy some changes have occurred since (in Britain since then we've seen the Somerset Fens flooded and drained, likewise the Norfolk Broads)

Which mean that, unless the area was submerged due to tectonic events (always possible in that earthquake prone region) then the structures are likely to be around 5,000 years old or possible older.

That would date them to around the same time as the height of megalith building in Britain (ie Castlerigg, Newgrange, Stonehenge all c3,200BC)

(Note that 'around 5,000 years' does not mean exactly 5,000 years )

[Guest]

Then why is it that nobody (except you) seems to be saying that much of the end of the Ice Age occurred around 3000 B.C.? (Watch it, you're beginning to agree with my timeline.)

[Essan]

Then why is it that nobody (except you) seems to be saying that much of the end of the Ice Age occurred around 3000 B.C.? (Watch it, you're beginning to agree with my timeline.)

Not at all - if the sea levels had been rising for 10,000 years prior to that time then it means the ice must have been melting for at least 10,000 years. Which means the ice age finished 13,000BC. Since it was a pretty big ice sheet it took a while to disappear completely.

I judge the end of the ice age based on when the ice sheets begin to retreat - not from when they've all finally melted (on which basis one could argue the last ice age hasn't ended yet as the Greenland ice sheet is still melting)

Although offically the Ice Age is deemed to have ended with the end of the Younger Dryas cold period c9,600 BC the ice had been melting / sea levels rising prior to that, during the Bolling-Allerod warm period - which commenced around 14,500 years ago.