pre clovis america

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john
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Re: pre clovis america

Post by john »

john wrote:time for some fresh air.

been pondering the americanski question. by all conventional arugments, was last continent populated by homo possibly sapiens, and they walked from siberia to tierra del fuego. only two problems, the land bridge among the glaciers most likely didn't exist, and the was no supporting culture of backpackers in siberia. so, dang, how come monte verde. did they fly? also, heaviest concentration of clovis points located in se north america.

so i'll throw out an argument to all comers. the americas were populated by a seabridge, not a landbridge. and it goes back way further than presently accepted theory.

there are too many actual, physical remains showing up on the west coast which relate to australo or ainu genotypes.

what puzzles me is who built the clovis points.

the solutrean connection has been suggested by some pretty wise heads. certainly, the existence of an extremely sophisticated and unique flint knapping technology in two very separate places must be considered.

and as all of this occurred well before god hisself built everything in six days, then rested on the seventh, no biblical references need apply.

john
to all -

now that some dust has settled, i'm still focused on the american continent, top to bottom.

i.e., human occupation of same.

my idea of a thread, here, in this forum, is not something which gets the arena therapy of thumbs up or thumbs down within a couple hours or a couple days.

nor is it a family squabble which goes on, and on, and on until all the original participants finally die.

archaeology is a continuously evolving science. my persuasion is that a thread grows as the knowledge grows.

so a thread can run for years, but not as front page news every day.

with that in mind, i think that pre-clovis america (mind you, i expose my own prejudice here) is ok to be a thread of continuing knowledge in this forum.

so i reintroduce it.


yrs.

john


ps

there will be a pop quiz on monday.
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Re: pre clovis america

Post by Sam Salmon »

john wrote:ps......there will be a pop quiz on monday.
Standing By! 8)
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Post by Beagle »

Ready and waitin' :shock:
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Post by Bruce »

john,

W e've covered the northwest asian concept but what about the northeastern portal of the Vikings into americaninski. The legend of vinland and the fields of wheat growing wild. It's pretty much accepted that they were here 1k yr and the sultrean points possibly prove a much earlier time.
marduk

Post by marduk »

the vikings used sultrean points ?
LINK ????
:lol:
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Post by Bruce »

http://crystalinks.com/clovis.html

"According to archaeoligist Dr. Bruce Bradley, both the solutreans and the Clovis folks made beveled, crosshatched bone rods, idiosyncratic spear points of mammoth ivory, and tiangular stone scrapers."
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Post by stan »

But bruce, that's about 12k years between
the Clovis people. and Lief Ericksson, and
several more thousand back the Solutreans.

Interesting about the similarities of the bone tools, though.
can you post pictures of those?
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Post by john »

Bruce wrote:john,

W e've covered the northwest asian concept but what about the northeastern portal of the Vikings into americaninski. The legend of vinland and the fields of wheat growing wild. It's pretty much accepted that they were here 1k yr and the sultrean points possibly prove a much earlier time.
OK. see if i can get my mind into order, here.

going back to the solutreans. they were perhaps the final flowering of late (european) paleolithic culture, with a specialized and unique methodology and process for creating hunting tools. they vanished ca. 18k bc.

they were known to occupy the iberian peninsula at the very end.

meanwhile, from appoximately 17k bc to 13k bc, north america was covered by a continuous sheet of ice. the last glaciation.

then, lets say just for argument at about 10k bc, beginning in se north america, and spreading with incredible rapidity, an unknown people hunted the big game of the late pleistocene with a set of hunting tools statistically identical to the methodology and process of the solutreans.

now, given the fact that the "northern gate" was still locked by ice while the "southern gate" had thawed, the concept of beringia, siberian peoples flooding south into n america, becomes untenable. additionally, the siberian cultures' toolmaking methodology and process was microlithic.

all of this has been well documented.

what we - or i'll just speak for myself here - are left with is an eight thousand year gap between the disappearance of the solutreans from continental europe and the appearance of an astonishingly similar culture in southern north america.

this is where your vikings, and also documentation of eskimo and inuit culture come in.

the vikings threaded the edges of the arctic sea-ice in an arc from northern europe to n america, navigating by their ability to recognize current, weather, and birds/fish/animals which kept them within striking distance of land. the northern native peoples have done the same for i don't know how many thousands of years.

the edges of artic sea-ice produce a fantastic amount of food, in the form of fish, seagoing mammals, birds, etc.

both the vikings and the northern native peoples were very accustomed to this way of life.

my speculation is that the solutreans also adapted to this way, and in the "vanished" 8k years, made their way from europe to america around the arc of the then-present atlantic sea-ice.

of course, if you're examining a people living on and about sea-ice, the chances of documenting the archaeoloogical record are infinitesimal.

some of them may have formed a culture which permanently bonded to to the north.

but others found their way south, to solid ground and big mammals in se n america, and spread out from there, leaving their characteristic hunting tool signature.

this put out as a start.................


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Post by john »

Rob Bonnichsen
Claims for the Remains
Dr. Robson Bonnichsen
Director, Center for the Study of the First Americans and Professor of Anthropology, Oregon State University

The significance of the Kennewick Man discovery should be understood in light of scientific developments occurring in the field of First Americans studies. For more than 40 years, most specialists seeking to explain Paleo-American origins have supported the Clovis-first model. This model proposes that the Americas were peopled once by a biological population from Siberia possessing a single culture and language. It envisions that the founding population moved across the Bering Land Bridge, traveled down the Ice-free Corridor between the Cordilleran and Laurentide ice sheets, and expanded into what is now the United States about 11,500 years ago. By use of a new and efficient hunting technology, these early hunters and gatherers and their immediate descendants were supposedly able to prosper and multiply as they spread across North America and throughout South America in about a thousand years.

Many believe that this initial colonization event explains the peopling of the Americas. Over the next 11 millennia, descendants from this initial founding population evolved and were responsible for the enormous diversity of biological populations, cultural groups, and languages found among modern Native Americans at the time of European contact.

First Americans specialists are now reconsidering the Clovis-first model in light of new discoveries and scientific developments that suggest the peopling of the Americas is much more complicated than originally anticipated. Many now believe that the old, simple, unilinear evolutionary model is incorrect and that a multilinear evolutionary model that envisions multiple colonization events must replace it. Some specialists are now considering the possibility that different colonizing groups from Asia and possibly Europe are required to account for the biological, cultural, and linguistic diversity found at the time of European contact and in the archeological record. Many specialists believe that the future of First Americans research must focus on exploring the validity of this new paradigm.

Many specialists in First Americans studies now suspect that not one but multiple colonization events occurred in America's earliest prehistory.

New discoveries and scientific developments have caused many leading specialists to question the validity of the Clovis-first model. In addition to archeological research, genetics and skeletal studies are providing important new lines of evidence for understanding Paleo-American origins. Advances in our understanding of the archeological record suggest humans were in the Americas well before Clovis. Important pre-Clovis data have been recovered from the Meadowcroft Rockshelter, Pennsylvania; the Cactus Hill site, Virginia; the La Sena site, Nebraska; the Monte Verde site, Chile; and the El Jobo site, Venezuela. These and many others support the proposition that humans were in the Americas before Clovis.

Other research suggests a series of regional cultures developed in the Americas that were contemporary with Clovis. For example, the Stemmed Point from the Great Basin, Snake River Plains, and the Plateau as well as the Goshen complex from along the flanks of the Rocky Mountains and Great Plains have radiocarbon ages as early as those from Clovis sites. In summary, the picture that is emerging from the archeological record indicates cultural variability existed in the Americas by Clovis times.

Genetic research conducted by Theodore Schurr, Douglas C. Wallace, and others provides compelling evidence for multiple colonization events. Modern Native American populations fall into four mitochondrial DNA haplogroups, A-D, and a fifth founding group is genetically linked to an Eurasian haplogroup X. (Transmitted solely along the female line, mtDNA can help identify individuals to haplogroups, or genetic groupings.) Haplogroups A, C, and D were brought to the Americas perhaps as early as 30,000 years ago. A second immigration may have brought haplogroup B possibly between 13,000 and 17,000 years ago, either along the coast or overland, or both. An additional haplogroup X that shared affinities to European or possibly Eurasian populations may have also entered the Americas prior to the last glacial maximum and is absent in modern Siberian populations. Ancient Beringian populations isolated during the last glacial period evolved by post-glacial times into a large North Pacific Rim branch of haplogroup A, which includes Eskimos and Na-Dene Indians.


Kennewick Man, whose discovery in a riverbank in 1996 is recreated in this still from the NOVA film "Mystery of the First Americans," is one of the most complete early skeletons ever found in the Americas.
Paleo-American researchers have opened a whole new intriguing field of paleobiology research by taking advantage of advances in radiocarbon dating such as carbon-14 accelerated mass spectrometry, which allows specialists to precisely date tiny amounts of carbon from individual skeletons. Physical anthropologists from North and South America have observed that Paleo-American cranial forms older than 8,000 years have distinctive features that share more similarities with Pacific Rim and southern Asian populations than with either modern northeast Asian or modern Native American populations. One possible interpretation of these data is that more recent groups replaced late Ice Age peoples who had a discretely different ancestry.

Our knowledge of America's earliest biological and cultural heritage remains amazingly thin. For example, there are fewer than 35 dated human skeletal remains in the New World older than 8,000 years old. Most of these early remains are fragmentary. The Kennewick Man skeleton is one of the most complete early skeletons from the Americas, and its study by competent scientists is essential to understanding his morphology, genetics, health, diet, lifestyle, etc., and his relationship to other New and Old World populations. Only through the study of important individual skeletons, such as Kennewick Man, from different regions and different times will the scientific community be able to build a coherent picture of America's past.

In First Americans studies, specialists can contribute to the scientific goal of developing an understanding of America's earliest cultural and biological heritage only through the comparative study of archeological remains, human skeletons, and genetics. This research, based on the foundation of integrated studies by multiple independent observers, promises to benefit all peoples by providing knowledge about the diversity of our species, a mirror of our ancestry, and America's contribution to world prehistory. It is imperative that public decision-makers charged with implementing the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act of 1990 recognize the importance of preservation and study of early human remains. Only through scientific study of important discoveries such as Kennewick Man can an objective knowledge America's rich and diverse past be developed and fully appreciated by all communities who have a stake in the past.



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n.b.


john
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Post by john »

n.b. x 2






Eureka! Quarry near oilsands full of ancient artifacts


THE CANADIAN PRESS
An archeological field worker shows a 10,000-year-old spear point later found to have traces of woolly mammoth blood on it. The artifact was uncovered at an ancient stone quarry in northern Alberta.


Spectator File Image

By Bob Weber
The Canadian Press
EDMONTON (Sep 15, 2006)
Oilsands activity has uncovered vast wealth of a different kind -- a 10,000-year-old quarry rich with tools and weapons from some of the first Albertans, including a pristine spearpoint still smeared with the blood of a woolly mammoth.

"It's got this echo of the Ice Age world," said Jack Ives, Alberta's provincial archeologist, who described the find in a hearing before the province's energy regulator yesterday.

"There's quite a rich concentration of artifacts."

The so-called Quarry of the Ancestors, which scientists suspect may be one of the first places where humans put down roots in northern Alberta after the retreat of the glaciers, is found on an outcrop of hard, fine-grained sandstone adjacent to the Albian Sands oilsands lease about 75 kilometres north of Fort McMurray.

The $12.8-billion Albian Sands project is before the province's Energy and Utilities Board.

The quarry was discovered in 2003 when Birch Mountain Resources, which quarries limestone in the area to make chemicals used in oilsands mining, conducted a routine archeological survey prior to its own proposed expansion.

The site's importance was evident almost immediately, said Nancy Saxberg, who conducted the field work.

"We went into the woods and dug a couple of holes, and everywhere we dug a hole we found archeological material," she said.

Spearpoints, knives, scrapers, stone flakes and tiny micro-blades that would have been fastened to a wood or bone handle all began to emerge from the boreal loam.

"People were prying this stuff out of the ground in chunks," Saxberg said.

One investigator turned up a spearpoint still sharp enough to penetrate flesh. When tested, it contained traces of proteins that matched elephant blood. The only possible source would have been a mammoth, an animal thought to have died out more than 10,000 years ago.

"It was pretty thrilling," Saxberg said.

The site, spread out over a square kilometre, was so large that Saxberg said the normal archeological practice of establishing the boundaries of a site had to be modified.

"We couldn't define the sector because the sector was so freaking huge."

As well as offering beautifully preserved examples of fine ancient craftsmanship, the Quarry of the Ancestors will provide vital clues to North America's human history.

The soil at the site is unusually deep for the area, said Ives, allowing archaeologists to separate material from different time periods.

"There appear to be opportunities to learn more about chronology," he said.

Tools fashioned from rock known as Beaver River Sandstone have also turned up at hundreds of sites in northern Alberta and Saskatchewan. Until now, the source of the stone has been mysterious. It came from the Quarry of the Ancestors.

"There's a vast area in which this raw stone material was circulating," Ives said.

Ives has assembled what he believes to be the outline of the area's history.

People first started coming into the area about 12,000 years ago, as the glaciers gradually retreated north into what is now the Northwest Territories. People followed their retreat, passing through the quarry area as part of their nomadic rounds, stocking up on the excellent stone and hunting when game presented itself.

Human occupation was interrupted about 10,000 years ago when a massive flood from Glacial Lake Agassiz inundated the area. People returned as the floodwaters abated, this time sticking around instead of just passing through. The quarry was a centre of occupation for thousands of years.

The depth of that history has thrilled members of the Fort MacKay First Nation, on whose traditional land the quarry sits.

"The community, especially the elders, found it to be very important to them," said Lisa Schaldemose of the Fort MacKay band.

Although band members are cautious about claiming the quarry's ancient toolmakers as ancestors, artifacts are on display at the band office and community gatherings have been held on the site.

In an area where land access is increasingly complicated by oilsands leases, Schaldemose said Fort MacKay wants the quarry to be permanently available to its community for use as a gathering place.

Everyone agrees the quarry, which is surrounded by oilsands leases, should be preserved.

Birch Hills Resources, which owns the quarry rights, will expand elsewhere, said owner Don Dabbs. "We recognized the importance right off the top. This area has had a very long history of being important to people."

TransCanada PipeLines has rerouted a line to avoid the site. Shell Canada has altered plans in the area. And Ives's department is asking Community Development Minister Denis Ducharme to declare the site a provincial historic resource, which would preserve it.

The Quarry of the Ancestors is irreplaceable, said Saxberg.

"This is an example of an early, early time when people are staying in one place and getting to know the landscape and getting to know the resources that are there," she said.




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Post by DougWeller »

But there are more differences between Clovis and Solutrean than there are similarities.

And if you look at the Solutrean sites in question, one thing they clearly did not do was exploit ocean resources. There is no evidence of them being able to achieve the feat of sailing to the Americas.

On the other hand, there is a lot of misunderstanding about Beringia, and also about the ease of going by boat from Siberia to Alaska. After all, the ancestors of the Dorset probably did just that: http://www.civilization.ca/archeo/hnpc/npvol21e.html -- it's an easy journey by primitive boat and even possible in the winter without a boat.

Doug
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Post by john »

DougWeller wrote:But there are more differences between Clovis and Solutrean than there are similarities.

And if you look at the Solutrean sites in question, one thing they clearly did not do was exploit ocean resources. There is no evidence of them being able to achieve the feat of sailing to the Americas.

On the other hand, there is a lot of misunderstanding about Beringia, and also about the ease of going by boat from Siberia to Alaska. After all, the ancestors of the Dorset probably did just that: http://www.civilization.ca/archeo/hnpc/npvol21e.html -- it's an easy journey by primitive boat and even possible in the winter without a boat.

Doug

you seem to be quoting evidence from 5k bc max, and, really, centered around 2.5k to 1k bc. re: mongoloid and microlithic peoples from siberia. i have no problem with that - it was a latter migration.

i can't find any evidence of a trail of clovis points extending from siberia (including previous cultural evidence in siberia) to the southern half of n america prior to 9k bc. nor the evidence of the "ice free corridor" leading south. it makes sense, per your argument, that the lithic technology of siberia would include clovis type points prior to the transmigration to alaska and points south.

unless your argument is that the siberians abruptly shifted from a microlithic technology to a clovis technology once they got beyond the ice in the southern half of n america. in which case, there should be evidence of a remnant microlithic technology found in association with clovis points. i know of no such evidence.

i'd like to hear your argument as to why clovis points are less associated with solutrean points than siberian points. so, to the point, just what are the type-similarities between siberian points and clovis points, as opposed to type-similarities between solutrean and clovis?


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Post by DougWeller »

My point is that there have been a number of periods in the past 50000 years when travel between Siberia and North America by boat or on foot has been possible.

It sounds like you aren't aware of Tony Baker's arguments:
http://www.ele.net/art_folsom/pre-clovi ... is2004.htm
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Post by Gene »

During glacial max the oceans of today are estimated to have been 300 to 400 feet lower than today. This would put the Grand Banks of Newfoundland above water possibly 50-100 ft.

There is a chain of mountains south of Siberia and Alaska that almost line up with Japan. would these have been islands during glacial max?

Being situated on the warming gulf stream could have provided a host to a marine food bonanza. The Azores which are situated almost exactly between Spain and the Grand Banks, might have had an appealing landscape then for skin-boat people.

Ireland and Iceland would have had larger coastlines as well. I like to view the continent shelves and envision what the coastlines would have looked like during a glacial max period. http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/globe.html

During the ice Age for mainland Europe/Asia it is supposed that people were ice locked into groups, R1B, R1A, I, Q, E and so on... which are different genetic male lines.

Somehow the female genetic group X shows up in Europe and some N. American indian people. it is not a large female genetic group.
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Post by DougWeller »

Gene wrote:During glacial max the oceans of today are estimated to have been 300 to 400 feet lower than today. This would put the Grand Banks of Newfoundland above water possibly 50-100 ft.

There is a chain of mountains south of Siberia and Alaska that almost line up with Japan. would these have been islands during glacial max?

Being situated on the warming gulf stream could have provided a host to a marine food bonanza. The Azores which are situated almost exactly between Spain and the Grand Banks, might have had an appealing landscape then for skin-boat people.

Ireland and Iceland would have had larger coastlines as well. I like to view the continent shelves and envision what the coastlines would have looked like during a glacial max period. http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/globe.html

During the ice Age for mainland Europe/Asia it is supposed that people were ice locked into groups, R1B, R1A, I, Q, E and so on... which are different genetic male lines.

Somehow the female genetic group X shows up in Europe and some N. American indian people. it is not a large female genetic group.
When was there a warming Gulf Stream? During the glacial maximum, Ireland and Britain were uninhabited, recolonisation starting around 13000 years ago.

By female genetic group X you must mean mtDNA Haplogroup X, which shows up in Europe, the Americas, and Asia, How it arises in the Americas is unknown, but it is different enough from European X to suggest that it and European X have a common ancestor, which may be in the Middle East. Unless it might have been a mutation. So it is quite possible that some people with Haplogroup X wandered west into Europe, others East into the Americas. It can't be used to prove a link with Western Europe.
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